Our Own Apartheid — Marina Mahathir
Our Own Apartheid
Marina Mahathir
Personal note: To mark International Women’s Day, I have skipped this week’s serialization of my An Education System Worthy of Malaysia to post Marina Mahathir’s essay. This is an important commentary, and I thank her for permission to post it here. MBM
MBM’s note: Wednesday, March 8, 2006 is International Women’s Day. This UN-sponsored event is to mark and celebrate the achievements of women, in particular to monitor the progress towards gender equity. While much has been achieved, considerably more needs to be done.
Achieving equality for women is more than just a do-good gesture. A nation cannot hope to progress if it does not make maximal use of the talent of half of its population. The embarrassing backwardness of many Muslim nations is precisely this; they have chosen to ignore the potential of their women by denying them access to education and other opportunities.
Malaysia is fortunate not to be in this category. We count in our midst women ministers, bankers (including the central banker), professors, executives, and judges. While women have made it to and excel at the appellate levels in our judiciary, our Islamic establishment has still to be convinced that women could be appointed judges in the Sharia courts.
As demonstrated by the recent bumbling attempts at reforming the Islamic Family Law, the gains of women, especially Muslim women, are not guaranteed. They will continually be eroded unless vigilantly protected.
Marina Mahathir’s essay below reminds us that while apartheid may have been discredited in South Africa a long time ago, that mindset is still persistent within our midst.
M. Bakri Musa
Our Own Apartheid
Marina Mahathir
In 1948, one of humankind’s most despicable ideas – apartheid – was made into law in South Africa, and with that racial discrimination was institutionalized in that country. Race laws touched every aspect of South Africa’s social life, including a prohibition of marriage between non-whites and whites, and the sanctioning of “white-only” jobs. Although there were 19 million blacks and only 4.5 million whites in South Africa, the majority of the population was forced to be second-class citizens in their homeland. They were banished to reserves and needed passports to travel outside them, even within their own country. It was only in 1990 that apartheid began to crumble and South Africans of all colors were finally free to live as equals in every way.
With the end of that racist system, people may be forgiven for thinking that apartheid does not exist anymore. While few countries practice any formal system of discrimination, nevertheless you can find many forms of discrimination everywhere. In many cases, it is women who are being discriminated against. In Malaysia, there is an insidious and growing form of apartheid among Malaysian women, between Muslims and non-Muslims.
We are unique in that we actively and legally discriminate against women who are arguably the majority in this country: Muslim women. Non-Muslim Malaysian women have benefited from more progressive laws over the years while the opposite has happened to their Muslim sisters.
For instance, since the Law Reform (Marriage and Divorce) Act of 1976, polygamy among non-Muslims was banned. Previously, men could have as many wives as they wanted under the then customary laws. Men’s ability to unilaterally pronounce divorce on their wives was abolished and in its place, divorce could only happen by mutual consent or upon petition by either spouse in an equal process. The grounds for such petitions include intolerable adultery, unreasonable behavior, desertion of not less than two years, and separations for not less than two years. Compare that to the lot of Muslim women who are abandoned but not formally divorced by their husbands.
Other progressive reforms in the civil family law in the late 1990s were amendments to the Guardianship Act and the Distribution Act. The Guardianship of Infants Act of 1961 was amended to provide for equal guardianship of both father and mother, rather than the previous provision where only the father was the primary guardian of the children. In contrast, the Islamic Family Law still provides for the father as the sole primary guardian of his children, although the mother is now allowed to sign certain forms for her children under an administrative directive.
The Distribution Act of 1958 was also amended to provide for equal inheritance for widows and widowers. The amendment also granted children the right to inherit from their mothers as well as from their fathers. Under the newly proposed amendments to the Islamic Family Law, the use of gender-neutral language on the issue of matrimonial property is discriminatory to Muslim women, when other provisions in the IFL are not gender-neutral.
Muslim men may still contract polygamous marriages, unilaterally divorce their wives for the most trivial of reasons, and be entitled to double shares of inheritance. And unique in the Muslim world, men may now initiate divorce via Short Text Messaging (SMS)!
The differences between the lot of Muslim and non-Muslim women beg the question: Do we have two categories of citizenship in Malaysia, whereby most female citizens have less rights than others? As non-Muslim women catch up with women in the rest of the world, Muslim women in Malaysia are going backwards. We should also note that only in Malaysia are Muslim women regressing. In every other Muslim country, women have been gaining rights, not losing them.
Malaysian leaders claim to stand for all citizens. Our Prime Minister boasts of being the Prime Minister of all Malaysians. Our Ministers work for all Malaysians in their respective portfolios. There are two exceptions to this. The Minister for Islamic Affairs is obviously only for Muslims; even though some of the things he does affect others. The Minister for Women purports to work for all Malaysian women, even though not all Malaysian women benefit from that work.
We should formally consolidate the apartheid of women in this country by having a Ministry for Non-Muslim Women which works to ensure that Non-Muslim women enjoy the benefits of the Convention for the Elimination of Discrimination against Women. Malaysia signed this UN document and is thus legally bound to implement it. Meanwhile the Ministry for Muslim Women works to gag and bind Muslim women more and more each day for the sake of political expediency under the guise of religion.
Today, March 8, 2006, is International Women’s Day. Unfortunately only about 40 percent of the women in this country can celebrate. The rest can only look with envy and despair at their non-Muslim sisters.
With thanks to Nik Noriani.
March 8th, 2006 at 3:11 am
Hi Marina and all our Sisters,
Wish you all the best for a better future. I have a daughter who is head-strong, independent and my god, very intelligent. She can stand toe-to-toe with her brothers and hold her own ground. What a proud father I am.
I am deeply concerned with the plight of Muslim womenfolk but I have to disagree with your contention that Muslim women in other countries have moved forward. This may be true in the West but in almost all muslim countries, most women are denied equal rights and opportunities and the meagre growth in countries like Kuwait, if simulated, may take another thousand years to see tangible results towards equal respect and recognition.
In Malaysia, women are educated (or becoming educated) and hold important positions but the blame on muslim men in its entirety for the predicament faced by muslim women is a bit far-stretched. A Singaporean Malay woman friend of mine once told me that the dire predicament faced by her Malaysian counterparts are their own-doing. Unlike some of the Arabic countries, Malaysian Muslim women have had always the opportunity to stand their ground and tell men in no uncertain terms of what they think is right for them. And we are talking about women in a majority position than men and yet they prefer to remain subdued and play to the gallery of men. When are they going to stand-up and assert their rights. Expecting the law to pave the way is really wishful thinking as almost all the positions are held by men.
Rather than making speeches where it matters only to a few, women of your calibre and substance should reach out to the grassroots. You are in a very enviable position and could ceratinly garner attention and support. I have always fancied your forthright approach and yes, women, irrespective of any race and religion, deserve the same as men. There are many of us who believe and hope that such would be the case but religion places encumbrances and while I can do this for my daughter and women of my race and religion, it would be on the shoulders of women like you who should muster the strength and will to go the grassroots to make things happen. Otherwise you will always stand accused as just a noisy troube-maker.
There can never be a nation of strength which bleeds its feminine gender of respect and recognition. Could this be the reason that most Muslim nations remain weakened in many ways?
March 8th, 2006 at 3:13 am
sorry “far-fetched”
March 8th, 2006 at 4:51 am
Dear Madam
May I ask, did the women MPs voted for or against the law in parliament?
And secondly, marriage is a contract - offer and acceptance. Man cannot marry a second wife without the agreement of the woman. Why blame the man every time. Maybe we should question why a woman marries a married man. Instead of blaming man for all the trouble, doesn’t the second wife (woman) be blamed as well. As a woman she should be more sensitive to the feeling of the other woman.
March 8th, 2006 at 9:02 am
Hi Timbuktu,
The issue of women, particularly young girls, going for married men can be viewed on both ways. If men put their feet down which, incidentally, is within their means, then they can save a lot of pain and heartache for both the woman and children. This is not to say all women are gems, as I have found out that some married men go through hell with their wives. All I am saying is, give some thought to the family and the responsibility towards the family.
On the issue of the women MPs backing out - YES, I agree with you. They were just selfish chickens without backbones who would do anything to take up a seat in the August house. So much for their cheap talk on sacrifice and blah blah blah. I have no respect whatsoever for these shameless women who sold of the women’s interests wholesale. I have never been this harsh with my words but these women ought to cover their faces in black cloth for the shame they have inflicted on their brethren. Don’t they have mothers, sisters and daughters? A real shameful lot. As a man, I would have encouraged my wife or daughter to stand their ground rather than selling off the interests of women. What about the women MPs in the Dewan Rakyat? All just brainless and spineless creatures.
March 8th, 2006 at 10:51 am
Dear Fair Malaysian,
I am not talking about naive young girls here. These ladies are professionals - lawyers, doctors, accountants etc who surely are aware of the “other women’s” predicament. Do they care? I don’t think so.
Another question to the Madam - why do women accept that when a marriage failed, the mother has more right for custody of children below age twelve? Yes, because it is outlined by religion. Second question - why do women accept that when they enter marriage, it is the husband responsibility to provide financially for the wife and children? In other words, “my money is my money and your money is also my money”. Right again, because it is outlined by our religion.
Personally, I don’t subscribe to this poligamy thingy (I adore my only wife) but I do accept that right and also women’s rights in a marriage. Why accept one thing and reject the rest depending what is beneficial to you?
March 8th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Malaysia’s Muslim Women ‘Suffer Apartheid’
Marina Mahathir, a reknowned HIV/AIDS activist and President of the Malaysian AIDS Council, liken the situation of Muslim women in Malaysia to black South Africans under apartheid. Apparently, this was supposed to be in her “Musings” colum…
March 8th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Marina need to look at the bigger picture and not at isolated cases in Malaysia. Frankly we have done so much with regards to women but we are not perfect. even the US are not perfect with regards to gender equality ….to Marina ..please think beyond your small circle
March 8th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
I’m proud of my mother… a mother, a friend, a teacher, a rubber taper, a cook, a farmer, a climber,..everything, deep inside a jungle, somewhere in Malaysia. I’m also proud of my late father. He did everthing possible as a poor but intelligent and strong father!
March 8th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Hi Timbuktu:
Yes, I see your point. While there is no doubt that women (professionals included) do seek solace and comfort from married men, the man needs to understand the pain and hurt this may cause, particularly children.
Of course, I have known a number of cases, too, where divorced men end up facing spiteful women who influence their children with hate and spite towards the father. And the traditional belief and role of a mother caring for the children better than a father, particularly in seperation matters have to be re-visited. I personally know of a case where a divorced man friend of mine attempted suicide because his children refused to see him - where his former wife had manipulated the children’s vulnerability to her advantage.
But, let us be clear on what we are discussing - fair play and equality for both men and women.
March 8th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
HTNet,
Yes, I think, The Star in its wisdom “chickened” out probably in part because of the fear generated by the latest Sarawak Tribune incident. But there is more to it. To me, it is another evidence of self censorship in our sickening “kipas” or “bodek” culture. If you read Marina’s piece carefully, you find that she has expressed her views without trying offend the powers that be.
You should also read her book, “In Liberal Doses”, to know that she has the courage of her convictions. She has an independent streak, a trait acknowledged by her Dad, Tun Dr. Mahathir in his forward to her book, which I find admirable.
Like Ivy Josiah, Zainah Anwar and few others, she is part of a rare breed of Malaysian women who are seeking to tackle head on gender bias in our country. I am afraid we cannot say much of people like Rafidah Aziz and Shahrizat Abdul Jalil and their types in Puteri UMNO including professional Muslim women who want to play safe and “get on”.
As one of my favorite intellectuals, Howard Zinn, said in his memoirs, “You can’t be Neutral on a Moving Train”. On women rights being human rights, I am, therefore, not neutral. The efforts of Marina and her friends to “level the playing field” for our wonderful Malaysian women are to be lauded. I would urge them to continue to do what is right. Maybe one day, just maybe, Malaysian women will stand shoulder to shoulder with us in equal partnership with equal inalienable rights to build a modern, progressive and just Malaysia.
I support women for full equality.They have the intellect, creativity and stamina for sustained high quality work. Why should they continue to “subsidise” us, the male gender, by discounting the value of their contributions to society?
Timbuktu,
Custody of kids under 12 should be with their mothers, in my view. The reason is simple. Mothers do a better job in raising kids they bring into this world, often putting their lives on the line, than Dads. That is my personal experience since the man and woman in my early life was my late Umi. I do not think that it is “because it is outlined by religion”. Which religion? Islam preaches, among other things, justice. It is just one of the last vestiges of a male dominated society.
Don’t you think we, the male species, should accept reality and change the system! For goodness sake, we are in the 21st century. What is Aparthied, if it is not downright discrimination in all its forms and manifestations?
Fair Malaysian,
I share your sentiments. I too have a 14 year old daughter and two others who are now adults. They are very conscious of their rights and “head-strong, independent and my God, very intelligent”. They are the future, and they will not accept male domination. Representing 50% of the population with voting rights, they matter in our fledging democracy and can no longer be ignored.
Thanks.
March 8th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
correction: “without trying to offend…”
March 8th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
I got to admit that I’m not well verse about the new/old family law. I’ve seen my mom working so hard at home while my father went out to fight for some bread on the family table.
Today, my wife is nothing like that. She’s having her own circle of friend, heading her own department in the company, her own time at the beauty centre. Earning more than the husband, paying the same amount of bills, or even more in the house.
What do I do to pay back for all that? I spend most of my time with the family… alternately cooking schedule hubby/wife.. waking up at night whenever the two kids cried..marrying another girl/lady - don’t think so because I love my wife more than anything although from time to time I joke about ‘bini muda’.
There were time when I went to work with the yellowish turmeric powder stain on my nails… guess who’s the one saying ‘Tengok orang takut bini, kena masak’… it was the lady.. not so old, around fourty.
What I’m trying to say is that the woman would need to prepare themself, most of the time Marina Mahathir fight for the gender that don’t care and don’t even wanna change… for them, what their parents did last time was the right thing to do in Islam, without knowing what does the real teaching offers in the first place.
I’m tired to hear the same thing about family law story in this country, it’s all about a guy having new wife and a woman being left high and dry by the husband… rationally I want it to be equal but then what can you do if it is not suppose to be equal in the first place…
Give it a few more years, my generation will be wise enough to think… but make sure that the information can be reach by everyone…not just the one who read NST or STAR.
March 8th, 2006 at 11:15 pm
Dear Dr M. Bakri Musa,
Kudos to Ms Marina Mahathir, who dares to speak out on a subject that has long been considered a taboo in the name of religion!
My best wishes and hope to her great and just endeavor!
Sincerely, Mong 3/9/6usct12:15a
PS: I’ve recently followed your footsteps, by publishing a book “Gods, Genes, Conscience” with the iUniverse.com (January 2006). At your convenience, I hope you would consider a review of my book for your nice forum herein. Thank you for your kind attention and cooperation in this matter.
March 9th, 2006 at 12:24 am
Teman Orang Perak,
Sad sorry indeed. Apa sudah jaga kepada kommer! There is no point complaining about your wife. Just have a good chat with her. She must know your true feelings about the state of marriage. Don’t suffer in silence, unless that is the choice you have made. I don’t want to sound like “Dear Abby” here .
As Fair Malaysian said, “let us be clear on what we are discussing - fair play and equality for both men and women”.
Cheer up and stand up for your rights, man. Only you can give your rights away.
March 9th, 2006 at 12:30 am
Dear Dr Mong H Tan,
How can I get hold of a copy of your book, “Gods, Genes and Conscience”? In the meantime, tell us on this blog briefly what is the message of your book. Thanks.
March 9th, 2006 at 12:45 am
Friends,
Below is some information on Dr Mong H Tan’s book (refer: http://www.iuniverse.com).
Book Description:
“GODS, GENES, CONSCIENCE delves deeply, and portrays succinctly, the nature of our millennia-old “body-soul” and “spirit-mind” paradoxes, including those of our earliest shamanic quests, and material conquests, for survival: From our innate dreams, to religious self-contradictions-corruptions-conflicts-destructions; to arts-linguistics; to socioeconomics-geopolitics; to science-technology; and to reason-sensibility-sanity-faith.
Specifically, this pop-science-first-book author, Mong H Tan, PhD, fathoms links among the chaos-orders of the evolutionary interstellar fabrics of Space, Time, Energy, and Matter; or the cosmic STEM matrixes-entities in the Universe that are all around us: From the creations of Life-Genes on Earth, to the ultimate, unique, unbound capacity-capability of our Mind-Gods within, in our brain or “memophorescenicity”, a new unified quantum Mind theory pursued from an empiricist electrochemical particle-wave or Yin-Yang propensities of holism-cosmology; a critical reader’s Theory of Everything, Biogenesis-Meanings and all.
Epistemologically-“memophorescenically”, in and by all accounts, intellectual and spiritual; Dr. Tan’s critical inquiries, philosophical and psychological; his timely anatomy-synthesis of the STEM origins (particularly those of our genetics-mnemonics; our fast-advancing knowledge, consciousness, freewill, and conscience regarding Gods; and our ultimate wisdom of cherishing Life on Earth) have no doubt been sharpened, enriched, and transcended by the vast, fast advances in science-technology, multiculturalism, and pluralism of the East-West, today and beyond”.
Thanks.
March 9th, 2006 at 12:54 am
ExMU,
Pretty much happy with things now..thanks anyway Abby
“let us be clear on what we are discussing - fair play and equality for both men and women”
what missing now is correct way of defining EQUAL and the amount of serious woman who wanna be playing equally.
March 9th, 2006 at 3:01 am
In my opinion, there is no such thing as equal, fairness yes.
Husband/father or wife/mother have different roles to play. Women can’t have it all and men can’t have it all either. I am more than happy to swap places with my wife and be Mr. Mom but how will our society look at it, furthermore will women accept it?
March 9th, 2006 at 4:19 am
Marina makes a good point, but I wish she would reflect more about things closer to home and a system, in effect, began and executed by her father with great gusto.
She says: “In 1948, one of humankind’s most despicable ideas – apartheid – was made into law in South Africa, and with that racial discrimination was institutionalized in that country. Race laws touched every aspect of South Africa’s social life.”
Equally, I could to say to her the following:
“After May 13, 1969, one of humankind’s most despicable ideas – legalised racism - was made into law in Malaysia, and with that racial discrimination was institutionalized in that country. Race laws touched every aspect of Malaysia’s social life.”
Now gainsay that! Or should I say: suck on that Marina!
LJ
March 9th, 2006 at 7:21 am
LJ:
I find that totally inaccurate. For me, the NEP alone would never have grated as much on me as the idea of ketuanan Melayu. It’s one thing to tell me that my fellow Malaysian needs me to sacrifice for him. If this means some day our children or great-great-grandchildren can compete and co-operate on an equal level, well, to me it’s no big deal sacrificing now. But it really ticks me off to be told that this “affirmative action” is in reality only for the Melayu because they have special rights as the indigenous people of this land. No matter how much loyalty to Malaysia and brotherhood with the Malays that the non-Malays demonstrate, they will never be treated as equals under this worldview.
It is my opinion that the NEP does not necessarily fit in with this worldview, so I believe it is foolish to call it apartheid. The NEP recognised that the Malays do not need a crutch forever, and that is why it set a specific expiration date for itself and specific targets to be reached. Some “ultras” (as Lee Kuan Yew and the Tunku used to call them) believe that Malays have a birthright to this crutch, which can never be taken away from them. Fortunately, they were rarely in the majority. But these days, it seems to me that UMNO politicians are becoming more aggressive than ever about ketuanan Melayu. And this worries me. For it is not the NEP that can ever represent our own apartheid. If we are ever to have our own racial apartheid, it will be called ketuanan Melayu.
March 9th, 2006 at 7:49 am
Nothing new, don’t we all along have two categories of citizenship: Malaysians - the malays and non malays ?! We don’t see equality when it involves women as well as men, so do we now expect full equality for all malaysian women? To expect our political masters to change things, that’s wishful thinking. Do they care?
The past 25 years, we witness with sadness how our our docile muslim women being subtly ” talibanised ” in the name of religion. Once covered up, I understand they are expected to always walk two steps behind their husbands/elder males, and be respectful at all times. How pretentious, I thought - that’s erosion of human dignity, freedom and independence.
Some of my very educated friends told me in confidence that it’s not of their choice(to cover up) but that of their fathers’ or husbands’ and as muslim daughters/wives, they are expected to submit to the wishes of elder male members of their families. Their answers always left me baffled and I always truly feel their loss with great sadness.
What has become of this nation of our? Is it going to the dogs? To be fair, I don’t blame it on the Badawi govt, this all started some twenty five years ago during Mahathir’s era and it has been left to rot. Twenty-two years is a long long time he ruled the country, but did he care to rectify the situation?
Ladies, comeon it’s about time you wake up and look at yourselves in the mirror and do something about yourselves and the situation you are in. If Rafidah and Shahrizat don’t bother to help you, sack them! No ifs, no buts.
March 9th, 2006 at 8:06 am
Why is Rafidah and Shahrizat there ? Because you put them there with your votes. The power is in your hands. Likewise, you can get them out before more damage is done.
March 9th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Dear Jong,
Unless the ladies are in UMNO, there is nothing much they can do to bring the two clowns down.
March 9th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Dear Jong,
Unless the ladies are in UMNO, there is nothing much they can do to bring the two clowns down.
March 9th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
Yes exactly - the wanitas in UMNO. About time, and with the power in their hands, kick those two opportunists with expired shelf-life out and go for change.
Then we’ll see who will ‘foam in the mouth’ , to quote Rafidah!
March 9th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
Its good to realise that in this so called ‘Apartheid’ that our great Marina is championing, there are still diverse views. We should realised that views based on pure intelect, and without ‘principles ‘would differ and everyone is entitled to their own views.
When we argue on what is right and wrong there must always be a governing principle. In the event of Malaysia, if we want to argue about racism and unfairness, off course we can, but since we are governed by the law of the land and if the laws are made to be fair we can all live with it.
Similarlay, the principles of Islam must be the foundation of any arguement on the subject that falls within its pervue. If one discusses the aspect of man- women relationship in Islam one must hold on to the principles that Islam allows women to be better than men in all areas if they work for it or achieve it, especially that relating to the spiritual attainment, in the eyes of God.
However the governing principles in Islam is that man and women play different roles and have diferring responsibilities. Another governing principle is that the man in a marriage for instance is totally responsible for his wife and family, immaterial of his situation, financial or health.
Therefore ,Marina do not only look at the failings of man, but look to the failings of both men and women within the context of the governing Law of Islam. So if you must argue about failings in the implementation of Islamic Law, argue within the laws of islam.
Do not use another law, be it US, UN, or UK laws or human rights principles to debate the implementation of the Islamic laws. Why is polygamy alowed but not encouraged in Islam? Why is the prerogative of divorce in the hands of the man in Islam, though the women also have equal rights to seek for a divorce?Why must a woman dress more decently in public, though a man too should not go about showing his navel. ( I have never yet seen a man dressed in clothing exposing his navel and the lobes of his butt !).
Argue and debate if you must but use the governing principles of Islam as your basis. Do not just argue on what you feel is right from your own principles. What is the basis of that principles? Modernism? Humanism? Feminism? It took God a few thousand years or maybe more, with hundreds of prophets to implement his laws and perfected it about 1400 years ago. Do you want to regress in the name pf progress or maybe we should improve its implementation?
Civilisation can only be achieved through the spritual and intelectual development and not from intelect alone.
My arguments , right or wrong is at least based on the governing laws of islam and not based on my intelectual self proclaimed princibles.
The above is just some food for thought purely for the Muslims. Salam
GK Baharein
March 10th, 2006 at 2:59 am
agree with GK Baharein’s view
March 10th, 2006 at 4:17 am
Dear GK Baharei,
“We should realised that views based on pure intelect, and without ‘principles ‘would differ and everyone is entitled to their own views.”
What do you say about different interpretation of the Quran or any holy books. The governing principle must be based on a common denominator ie. we are all human beings. Hence the universal declaration of basic human rights should be the governing principles. If it is imperfect, it can be amended/improved as we gain better understanding through experiences.
Religious dictate is likely to bring chaos instead of harmony in a multi-cultural society. Why should one belief system (religion) be imposed on others?
March 10th, 2006 at 4:35 am
yes..GK Baharein..i agree with you.
March 10th, 2006 at 8:37 am
GK Baharein/Nor’aini:
I had a very strict religious upbringing. As I grew up and started searching for the answers to the many questions, somehow I hit a wall. It was later in life that it dawned on me that if indeed god’s laws are perfect, then why the necessity for man to create laws? Afer all god was supposed to trascend time and space.
Look at the divisions in the name of religion and what more than the divisions within each religion. The holy site of one Muslim sect was bombed by another Muslim sect in Iraq, causing so much of bloodshed and even lives. In Pakistan, it is no better, particularly after Friday prayers. Isn’t that very shameful. The long running fued between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland is starkly staring at us. In fact, every religion faces similar idiosyncrasis.
Millions of lives were lost in Iraq when wishful Bush went on an adventurous streak, incidentally because god commanded him to do so. The unsightly sufferings of the Bosnians at the hands of Serbs is still lingering in the minds of many. On a false pretext, Hindus unfairly mobbed and killed thousands of innocent Muslims. Is that what Hinduism teaches or the gods teach? Where were the gods when the innocent Iraqi children were maimed by an aggresive force? The vivid memory of the skeletal sight of Bosnians - where was god then?
Let me relate a recent tragedy which happened in India. A father-in-law raped his own daughter-in-law. A despicable act we would say but the religious council (there were TWO) decreed that she should leave her husband and become the wife of the father-in-law. I am a bit confused here - the perperator being rewarded for a heinous crime, as required under Islamic law, so decreed the council.
Today, the powerful nations impose their will on weaker nations. God does not seem to play a role in any of these. He is only chosen to suit the convenience of man to impose man’s will against man and religion is a powerful tyrannical tool used by many despots to impose their will. Times have changed and believing and pretending otherwise may provide comfort to our senses but only by abdicating the sense of truth and reality.
March 10th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Fair Malaysian
Well written. Yes, man frequently used God’s name in the pursuit of their own ambitions and plans. That is the greatest “shirik” i.e. and betrayal of God. God here refers to the God of all religion as pointed out by you.
March 10th, 2006 at 7:44 pm
Nor’aini and M,
I am interested in your grounds for agreeing with GK Baharein. Jangan “agree” saja, macam ahil kipas-bodek saja. Mesti ada pandangan sendiri dan lojiknya. Thanks.
March 10th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
Bro Din:
How have you been keeping? Sometimes I do try to control my temptation in not visiting this blog because of the current heavyload work commitments but somehow the mind plays tricks on me and draws me to this particular blog. Anyway, hope we can meet one day.
Regards
March 10th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
Fair Malaysian,
“He is only chosen to suit the convenience of man to impose man’s will against man and religion is a powerful tyrannical tool used by many despots to impose their will.”
I am in total agreement with every word uttered here. Well said.
What’s next? Let’s start with Malaysia first. Saudara Din, Fair Malaysian, Dr Bakri, Fathols, others?
Words are catalysts to many human actions and achievement as recorded in history. I sincerely hope your words would go down similar path.
Thank you
March 10th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Now the question is, is there really a creator GOD? or the Darwin Theory of Evolution more acceptable today?
There’s no deny that generally religions have greatly contributed to human development and progress with values and formulated principles to guide human life but for the good that they have done, they can no longer survive if followers insist on imprisioning truth into set forms and rigid dogmas, and practices that have depleted their original meaning.
March 11th, 2006 at 1:36 am
Well, kgboy, I can’t agree more.
There are many from among us who are prepared to walk the well beaten path. How are we to stop them from doing so?
Religion is indeed a powerful tool to rein-in both the believers and non-believers. People go to war in the defence of their beliefs. If mountains can be moved than souls like you and me are nothing but mere pawns to be manipulated by the rich and powerful.
Almost every despotic ruler (in Third World countries) uses religion as a weapon. Question is why are we so blind?
March 11th, 2006 at 2:43 am
Fair Malaysian,
I am fine, thanks, and active. Despite a few commitments, I never fail to visit this blog everyday. I am learning new points of view from these exchanges by very mature, concerned and intelligent Malaysians.
We have shown that discourse can be civil, without the use of foul language. This is good as we need to listen to each other more often. I now feel the pulse of our emerging civil society. This is future Malaysia.
I do occasionally find, however, that some Malays who respond to our comments “freeze” whenever some so-called “Islamists” like G.K. Baharein bring in religion. Overnight Baharein becomes an authority on the subject with a few saying “I agree” without knowing their reason for it. The Malays seem unable to discuss “religious issues” without getting emotional, or uptight. When they are challenged, they retreat. That is conditioned response and it is sad indeed.
Fair Malaysian, do your remember Mr. Baju who used to react to my pieces and yours? He is silent these days. I guess, he finds it below his dignity to dialogue with “kafir” like you, and a Muslim “deviant” like me.I have not heard from Anson Warrior too. I know he has his own blog.
Keep writing as I enjoy the contributions you and others like Kgboy, Orge, Fathol Zaman, Jong, Teman orang Perak, just to name a few, make to this webblog. Thanks.
March 11th, 2006 at 2:47 am
Pardon me, Ogre, I got the spelling of your “nama pena” wrong. Where is Keris_always? He must be hibernating, and only Rose Chan can excite him.
March 11th, 2006 at 4:05 am
Bro Din:
Happy to know that you are keeping well and thanks for the thought and words.
Hi Jong:
Let me relate a story my mother told me when I was nine years old, which incidentally changed my perception of life in many ways. Two friends visited a funeral house. Let us call them A and B. There was a bit of a crowd. After paying their respects, both sat down amid the gloom. A asked B what would it be like to be inside the box (coffin). B told that one has to go in to find out how it would be inside. True, said A, but the problem is once you are inside you cannot come out to tell what it would be like to be inside. It is a one-way ticket to into the journey unknown.
The greatest mystery is, my mother told me, none of us really now what happens after we leave our mortal body. I, too, do not know and if I am posed with the question of Darwin or God, in all honesy and humility, I would say I do not know because that is truth. I know there are a lot of “experts” who keep on saying that god would do this and that, as if they are god’s secretary. This puzzle of not knowing our fate after death has become the single most factor in spurning out the many theories and interpretations and as man is known as what he is, keeps churning out theories and true to man’s spirit becomes the theories are as divisive as man.
Several years ago, when I was still a staunch Hindu, a friend of mine invited me to a particular temple. When I reached it, hardly 100 yards away, there was another temple. I asked my friend why there is another temple so close to this. You know what, the deity of that temple happened to be the deity of the temple I visited. I did not need a Phd to know this happened to be a human problem - as it actually turned out to be. Let me tell you another incident I witnessed. A temple was being demolished in Old Klang Road and there was a big commotion. When I aksed an elderly lady why there is so much of commotion, she said that this god and temple is a very powerful one and the authorities have no right to demolish the temple. So, I asked her “if you claim this god and temple as that powerful, that god should be able to show actually that and protect that temple. If he cannot even save himself and the temple, how on earth he is going to save me?”
Please friends, I do not have even the slightest intent to belittle anyone or any religion. I can sit beside anyong with fervent religious beliefs and have a cup of coffee because as much as I am entitled to my own beliefs, the other person, too, deserves the right to his beliefs, as I would not, in all honesty, be able to say that what I say and belief is right. The problem starts when the “experts” start imposing their will on others, claiming to breathe god’s will into us.
And I dare to say that all religions with no exception seem to suffer the same fate. For, instance, in Malaysia, the Muslim God seems to be more powerful, as the hindu and christian gods still have not solved the problem of equality and fairness since Independence. I do not see it anyway. In India, the hindu god is very powerful, in the Phillipines, the christian god and in Sri Lanka, the Buddha. So, you see, it is crystal clear that it is the majority’s will on the minority.
It does not follow that the abdication on the belief in god, as it has been in China and Russia, would be the solution. If I do hurt you with malice, it is I, and not god, who should say sorry. So, it has always been man’s problem against man and summoning god to our side for our devious acts is the other devious side of man. This is not to to say there are among us many who relate to god with their own kindness, humanity and humility. I do not know the god who had been so well proclaimed but perhaps I would be able to see the goodness of such a god through these people but when the ugly things are done in the name of god, then god, too, has to share that blame. Otherwise he cannot claim to be the all-powerful and almighty. If he does not have the capability to solve the treachery and tyranny the world is plagued of, then I do not see any point in giving him (or her) any credit.
Let me reiterate that my piece here is not to hurt or impose my beliefs on others. It is my very own and I have to admit I could be wrong. I would rather be wrong rather than tell lies that I know so much about god. Good day to all.
March 11th, 2006 at 6:41 am
Fair Malaysian, a great thoughts…would love to meet you.
March 11th, 2006 at 6:50 am
First off, I’d like to salute Marina Mahathir, in her own right, and not because she’s the daughter of a former PM, for a well articulated Malaysian issue. Faith crosses all boundaries — race, gender, age and eduaction. It’s one area this scribe has been “reluctant” to discourse as personally I feel so inadequate.
Second, I’d like to thank Bakri Musa for hosting this discourse; and I’d like to expand the thread to a wider, and hence more significant and consequential, form of “apratheid” in the Race-based polices practised by the Malaysian environment. Since Merdeka about 49 years ago, so-called affirmative programmes under the guise of New Economic Polcy, then renamed into others guises, but nevertheless same self-serving with blatantly abused history and record, and now being perpetuated under false pretenses (using unreliable and questionable statitics…among the reasons), these largely RACE-BASED POLICIES ARE CONTINUED BY THE GOVERNMENT LED BY PAK LAH.
I had greta hopes when Datuk Ser Abdullah Ahmad Badawi assumed PMship Nov 1, 2003, hoping that a leaderr well-grounded in religious knowledge, and clearly a God-fearing man, would be “visionary” enough to see to eradiacting the ROOT CAUSES of the nation’s chief problem of nation-building, closely related to the minimisation of ethnic-centric policies.
But the Barisan led Goevrnment, ensured its status quo by continuing to keep the ethnioc communities cocooned within their well-partitioned “ethnic” groups - as wished for by the short-sighted Politicians — UMNO heading the Malays/Bumiputeras, MCA the Chinese, MIC the Indians and other smaller BN components lookingg after minor ethnic groups, the citizenry has been fed on a constant diet in their everyday lives to “RACE, RACE, RACE” policies. A good example I have often quoted in my own writings is staring in Malaysian faces by the roadside and highway (EVERY DAY!)the DIFFERENCIATED housing prices of 10-15% discounts for a particular group regardless if they are already well-to-do, nay, some of the buyers are even millionaires getting a house costing RM0.5million with a 15% discount, while some poor Malaysians can’t evne afford to buy a low-cost house of RM30,000.
Yes, I agree with your main point , Marina, about the fate of Muslim women, but extrapolate this “similar” discrimination to some 50% of fellow Malaysians, you have a larger “national” problem ahead.
Until, and unless, a visionary leader comes along and is able to galvanise Malaysians towards NEEDS-BASED — NOT RACE-BASED! - POLICIES, I’m afraid NegaraKu will remain a dream. We are NOT EVEN AT THE STARTER’s LINE!
Tonite I’ll say another prayer that in the near future, a truly TOWERING MALAYSIAN LEADER will emerge, because Pak Lah — I can understand why since he’s enmeshed in the pool of croc-infested UMNO pool - had failed to seize the golen oppportunity of achievinga 90% mandate to bring about a FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE. He is almost a nigh-visionary leader that I had wished for. Too bad, I’m disAppointed. Well, hope springs eternal in hearts that still flutter:)
March 11th, 2006 at 10:29 am
Fair Msian:
Wow, that was a good lengthy piece! Thank you for sharing your very frank and most enlightening discourse. Appreciate that.
According to Albert Einstein, “If this being(creator GOD) is omnipotent, then every occurrence including every human action, every human thought and every human feeling, and aspiration is also his work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an Almighty Being? In giving out punishment and reward, he would to a certain extent to be passing judgement on himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to him?”
I can’t agree more. I would expect him(creator GOD) to be in full control of things he created, should he not?
March 11th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
Fair Malaysian, Kgboy, Jong and others,
As a Muslim, I believe in the Almighty Allah, The Most Merciful and the Most Compassionate and Muhammad His Prophet(pbuh). I do not question the Day of Judgement. All Muslims (and I assume people from other great religions too) believe that our souls are eternal and after we pass on, we must account for our sins and will be rewarded for the good things we do in this world. So, there is a Heaven (Syurga) and a Hell (Neraka).
The Existence of God (Allah) is, therefore, not an issue with me. Neither was it for Mathematician and Philosopher Rene Descartes, a former Jesuit, who tried to prove the existence of The Almighty by the use of mathematical logic. But for me, it is an article of my Faith. In my many crises, I feel there is Most Merciful and Most Compassionate God. Otherwise, I would not have survived without that Faith. I also see the many wonders of nature around me, and I know there is God. He Exists in all His Majesty.
All said, I am very concerned about how we practise our Islamic Faith. There is too much emphasis on rituals (and in the process, the Malays try to “outIslam” one another), and all too human interpretations (tafsir) of the Holy Quran today. We rely completely on religious scholars who are ordinary mortals, who are not free from error, and who cannot be subject to criticisms. BTW they are not prophets. The Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)is the last of them.
The Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet) today, for example, is a subject of controversy with regard to its authenticity. My good friend, Kassim Ahmad, made some daring comments on the subject and became a center of controversy in the 1980s (?), even damnation. Today, Islamic scholars are in raising the same issues that Kassim discussed a quarter of a century ago.
You see, we, Malay Muslims, are very conservative, although the 21st century demands that we re-examine our interpretations of the Holy Quran and the tenets of the Sharia. Our treatment of our Muslim women, for example, is clearly unjust.
Marina Mahathir, Zainah Anwar and her colleagues in Sisters-in-Islam are seeking address this issue, but most Muslim men and women in our country are ignoring their pleas for a thorough review of Sharia laws relating Muslim woman rights. Why this closing of the Muslim Malay mind? If there is discrimination, let us recognise it, and take action to eliminate this Aparthied.
Politics too has come into play. Today the Sunnis and the Shia’s are at each others’ throats in Iraq. In our country, UMNO and PAS are at loggerheads on “Malaysian Islam” (Islam Hadhari?). The Ulamas are now having a field day as both sides seek their support. We have UMNO Ulamas and PAS Ulamas, not to forget KeADILan Ulamas. Fortunately, all these parties which are after loyalty and support of the Malays are keeping that contest at an ideological level, at least for the time being.
I renew my Tawhid daily at least before I sleep, and try to observe the 5 Rukun Islam to the best of my ability. In that way, I believe that I can be less confused about my Faith. I also keep my practice private and distinct from the so-called “secular” stuff I have to do for my daily existence.
Let us see how the Mr Baju types will react to my comments. Thanks.
March 11th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Correction: “who cannot…” to “who can be subject to criticisms.” (para 3). Thanks.
March 11th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
Friends,
This piece (below) is Kassim Ahmad’s response to Kevin Tan’s article which appeared in The Sun recently.
Pak Kassim remains steadfast to his principles, and I admire such a man of conviction who embodies the archetypical intellectual, as defined by the late Edward Said, one who speaks “the truth to power”.
Moderation, justice, and balance, that is what Islam is, in my humble opinion. Islam is the Religion of Truth. It appeals to man’s akal (the capacity to think and reason).
Thanks.
“Muslims Must Undergo Internal Changes, or Else They Will Be Replaced
I agree with Kevin Tan that Muslims must make internal changes to catch up with the modern world. It is highly ironic that Prophet Muhammad’s great revolutionary teachings that fired up an Arab Renaissance in 7th to 13th centuries and introduced science and the scientific method to the world to replace a mystery and superstition-filled world that Muslims today represent a reactionary force.
About three to five hundred years after the Prophet’s death, a new version of the teaching, based on the so-called Prophetic Traditions or Hadith and the dominant role of the newly-emergent clerical class to interprete and act as the custodians of the religion, arose to stifle the fresh breath, dynamism and creativity of the simple monotheistic teaching of the Religion of Truth, as Islam is some times called in the Quran.
How did this happen? It may take us a while explaining this, but it happens to all new humanistic teachings that have ever arisen to reform human societies. The evil forces get to work as soon as a Moses, a Jesus and a Muhammad is set on a course of reform. That is what history teaches us, and it is not all due to the deterministic belief in the historical pendulum. Man makes history and history essentially continues on an upward course, not a linear, but a non-linear integralist, upward course, as the late Prof. A. Sorokin explained. Man, the Noble Man, otherwise God-personifed, is therefore bound to triumph.
Kevin Tan’s implicit belief that modernization and modernity are what the Muslims need is not quite right either. The militant Western stand on “democracy” and “secularism” and “progress”, militant because the West brooks no opposition from anywhere, is a denial of what it preaches. The West is its own subjective reason. Its fall is written all over its face.
Between the liberal-democratic mythology that the West propagates and its marxist-communist opposite, is there no middle path? Those who speak and rule in God’s name, in the West and in the East, have already made their debut and have miserably failed. Militant secularism and militant religiosity have both failed Man. Man has to find a middle path, the straight path of the Quran, to find his way onward towards the spirit’s happy home”.
Kassim Ahmad
Tanjung Bungah
Penang
kassim03@streamyx.com
March 11th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Bro Din:
Great personalities like Gandhi were a soothing layer over the many crypto eccentrics that we have come across. Gandhi not only fervently advocated unity in diversity but also lived by it. Despite being an avowed hindu, he put his foot down to protect the rights and interests of the minorities, particularly Muslims. He personified that god that he believed and the faith he practised. Martin Luther King adopted a Gandhian-style approach in his quest towards rights and equality. He remained a steadfast christian to the end.
My point here is, these two personalities, like some others, have played a very dominant roles in shaping my beliefs unto humanity and mankind. I never had problems with their entrenched religious beliefs and, in fact, I see the gods they believe in as personified in them.
In this blog, we have had a very rejuvenating and enlightening discourses and gentlemen like you have led the crowd of us to engage in a very civil discussion on a wide range of topics. We have accorded, and will continue to do so, the respect and dignity befitting your stature as a wonderful person with unprejudiced wisdom and understanding. If such a personality potrays a religion he belongs to, I can certainly recognise, respect and live with it. Your steadfast religious belief in no way clouds my decision in recognising you as a person with clarity of mind in dealing with issues which interests all of us. My respect to you Bro. Din.
My entire discussion here on god and religion is what I believe in based on my understanding of this world. A child born as buddhist, adopted by a chrisitian would grow up as a christian. Certainly man makes the difference here and not god. The same hands which embraces my mother, sister and daughter also embraces my wife. Where does the difference lie? Is it bilogical or is it the mind? Man decided to infuse civility in the society he lived in and not god. Hypocrisy has become synonymous to god and religion. When minds are hijacked by religious zealots, they will murder people, raze down mosques and churches. In all, god kept silent in the most needed moments and I find it hard to seek solace in something or someone called god who just watches by doing nothing. Man had made a difference, either way, and that is tangibl visible.
Am I going to be judged, if there is a creator-cum-god based on the label of a religion or as a human being when I leave this mortal body? I honestly do not know but for the time-being and throughout my remaining journey on this earth I would prefer to hold to the comfort of being a human being understanding another human being and try my best to live like a human being rather than with the god and the religious label. Because, at the end of the day, I can see a “human being” but not god and I prefer to invest my hopes in what I can see rather than some or any shadowy object that would equate to “that not seen, both literally and figuratively, is non-existent”.
March 11th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
Bro Din:
Where you have managed to keep your religious belief/practice private while facing secular stuffs, it is really commendable. Very few rise to such a challenge. Good day to you.
March 12th, 2006 at 1:48 am
Jong,
If you seriously look into all the complex structure of living things and the scientific laws governing both physical and nonphysical things around us you would wonder how is it possible that such complex structure be the result of the coming together of things by accident. The complex and highly intelligent stem cells is a good example. The myriads of living things emerging from a single cell with intelligent advanced enough to eventually develop into multicellular being with multitudes of cells performing diversed functions in perfect synchronicity. Our brain is such wonder. It requires myriads of microchemical reactions involving thousands of complex chemicals working with atomic clock precision together with millions and/or billions or even trillions of cells firing electrical impulses to just allow me the simple task of putting my thoughts into a few words here. The biggest supercomputer in the world today pales in comparision to our brain both in terms of complexity and the number of memory capacity (in comparision to the RAM and ROM). I certainly think that the computers (think of the PC in front of us that allow us to communicate with such ease today) results of years of research involving thousands of scientists and billions or perhaps trillions of dollars of research fund, certainly not an accidentally coming together of silicon and electrical components to form.
I am not sure ‘who’ created this complex world. I certainly dare not speculate that it (this complex world) is the result of some freak accident. At this moment in time, I feel comfortable to attribute such creation to God.
Fathol.
Religion a name we use to honour and acknowledge God, in the beginning involves blind faith. As the human specie progressed, our understanding of the world around us should be exploited to further understand God’s creation. Blind faith should gradually be replaced with enlightenment and understanding. However, there seem to be many who continue to ignore such findings and the intention of God. God has given us the ability to learn through conditioning such that what we learnt can be retrieved instantaneously to allow us to react aptly without much delay (Dr Edward de Bono in his book of creativity succintly explained this idea of conditioning and espounded merits and demerits of such an inherent system). Such instant judgement has many merits. However, like fire, water and many of God’s gift to mankind, it is a double edged sword. Our learning through conditioning created a huge monster amongs us. It’s bigotry.
Professor Wilder Penfield, a neorusurgeon discovered that not only are human able to record sight, sound and touch, we are able to remember smell, touch, and even emotions. Professor Penfield discovery formed the basis of Dr Eric Berne’s research into human behaviour. Dr Eric Berne’s research lead him to some very beneficial and enlightening psychological theories of ‘transactional analysis’. One of the character developed in us due to conditioning is the ‘parent’ It is the prejudicial part of us that often rares its ugly heads amongst us. Such bevahiour would depend on how strong the preconditioning during the developmental stage of our life. The more dramatic is the conditioning, the stronger the ‘parent’ character. For example, if a parent is killed by someone, whether due to racial or religious misunderstanding or not, the children even not having witness the incident directly, but related repeated by someone to him during his developmental years with constant reference to the ethnicity of the killer/s, would form a prejudice so deep that it would be difficult to rid himself of the prejudice even if eventually he experiences more subsequent kindness from people of the same ethnicity as his parent’s killer/s. Hence, the vicious cycle continues. It is not difficult to find such example in this world of wars.
When I first stumbled into this blog, I know very little about Dr Bakri except for some mention here and there in some other blogs and in Malaysiakini. Apologies Doc. As I started to read Dr Bakri books online, I begin to acquire an addiction to this blog not only because of Doc’s writing which is the result of his open minded stand but also the quality of the comments. Being a student of science, Doc has used his understanding of the world around him and extrapolate into many issues. Being also a student of science, I must be careful not to allow bigotry or biasness get into my system.
I share with Dr Bakri his concept of ridding narrow mindset through liberal and open education lest we create a society of bigots. These are ofcourse not Dr Bakri’s words but my interpretation.
Hence, my constant reference to this block especially the comments column for education and hopefull rid myself of my own bigotry.
March 12th, 2006 at 3:29 am
Well said, kgboy.
I don’t profess to be religious but I perform my obligations, as required Never have I imposed my will on others. I am a friend to everyone, regadless of race or creed.
My late father could recite the Quran by heart but he did not insist that we carry the “tasbeh” wherever we went. He taught us the meaning of compassion and empathy. That frienship transcends beliefs and cultures.
There are the bigots in my kampong who preach and spread hatred - haram this and haram that. But I kept my distance.
You hear this often on national radio when one clergy will pronounce the punishments for this and that. You have confused callers seeking answers for their sins. “Apakah hukumnya orang yang …” And how much “pahala” you can amass from doing this and that. The list goes on.
Preaching is by way of fear. Is this the way to win converts? There are those who may disagree but I feel a religion of tolerence must remain as such if we aspire to be a leading Muslim nation.
We are so concerned for the forms rather than the substances. Headscarves, polygamy etc seem to gain prominence over issues as corruption and incest. It is bafflng. But that is the truth.
March 12th, 2006 at 3:51 am
Oops!
block — blog
Thanks Fathol.
March 12th, 2006 at 7:49 am
Saudara Din,
Sunday is normally a day for the family, a day of rest and a day for reflection both spiritually and mentally. Children away on camp and wife on a trip. I am blessed with the company of this laptop. I like to reflect on your words and those of others as well.
“The Existence of God (Allah) is, therefore, not an issue with me. Neither was it for Mathematician and Philosopher Rene Descartes, a former Jesuit, who tried to prove the existence of The Almighty by the use of mathematical logic. But for me, it is an article of my Faith. In my many crises, I feel there is Most Merciful and Most Compassionate God. Otherwise, I would not have survived without that Faith. I also see the many wonders of nature around me, and I know there is God. He Exists in all His Majesty.”
Fair Malaysian,
“My entire discussion here on god and religion is what I believe in based on my understanding of this world. A child born as buddhist, adopted by a chrisitian would grow up as a christian. Certainly man makes the difference here and not god. ………. Where does the difference lie? Is it bilogical or is it the mind? Man decided to infuse civility in the society he lived in and not god. Hypocrisy has become synonymous to god and religion. ……….. In all, god kept silent in the most needed moments and I find it hard to seek solace in something or someone called god who just watches by doing nothing. Man had made a difference, either way, and that is tangibl visible.
Am I going to be judged, if there is a creator-cum-god based on the label of a religion or as a human being when I leave this mortal body? ……….. Because, at the end of the day, I can see a “human being” but not god and I prefer to invest my hopes in what I can see rather than some or any shadowy object that would equate to “that not seen, both literally and figuratively, is non-existent”.
Perception, perception and perception. I like to join the discourse with response to both of your comments together.
We all have our own respective perception of god. Many before us especially in the west, have been disappointed with God because of his seemily lack of “response” to our human actions or inactions (inclusive of extreme atrocity and extreme religious generosity commited by man). Why is god not responding? Why has he not shown his hands? My take on this issue is, he is watching and only reveals His hands rarely. When He shows his hands, it is often in ways that are not easily detected or observed. Has not Jesus gone through extreme suffering in the hands of mere earthlings, just to demonstrate the heinous nature of man and his sins? Has God interfered? Yes and no. Depending on whether He deems fit and timely.
As for myself, I see God’s hands every perceivable creatures and phenomena on earth. Butterflies? Lions? Sharks? Lightnings? The Amoeba? It also include moments when we are not able to come out with a solution especially being confronted with a difficult problem in calculus, solutions appear at the least expected of moment, QED? How do you explain child prodigy who seem to derive exceptional talent from birth? God demonstrates both kindness and cruelty, beauty and heinousness, abundance and scarcities. I see God in the Periodic Table too. I see God in Newton’s Law of physics. I see God’s hands in our Milky way and the many stars and suns of our universe. God reveals to us in order to appreciate happiness, we experience sorrow. The bliss after pain.
One of the problem with us man is we only seek God when confronted with calamity. Like a virtuous father, God does not intervene into every aspect of our life. He gives us ‘free will’. Even in the belief in Him!! Like the minerals on earth, we discover them as we seek them purposefully. However, when he chooses, God also reveals them to us at the least expected moment. Many scientific disoveries arrived by accidents. I also like to draw attention to documentaries on either the Discovery Channel or the National Geographic. A camara man would seldom interfere with the hunting of a pride of lions however cruel they may think the hunting may lead (eating the prey alive). We may never understand why God created such cruelty. There may be a lesson for us all. We need to discern and discern we will. Our urge to seek knowledge and understanding of nature is God’s will as well. My oft narration of the butterfly and the coccoon are good examples of God’s hands.
If we observe the lightning in the sky, we often wonder the purpose of it. Do we realise that the lightning in the sky has a deliberate purpose of creating ozone by splitting the oxygen into positive ions which cleanse the earth’s atmosphere? Do we also appreciate that the layer of atmosphere surrounding the earth has a an important function, apart from providing the air that we and the rest of the living creatures on earth need, of protecting us from meteorites, UV and other harmful extraterrestrial debris and radiations? I see God’s hands in all these.
Therefore, as for me, I seek God by understanding His creations, His intented meanings occurences on earth, His purpose for us here on earth. The above are only mine and my belief only. For sharing.
If you have reached this end. I thank you for your indulgence. Saudara Din and Fair Malaysian, you have generously contributed to this blog with many of your wisdoms and thoughts, the least I can do is try to reciprocate. I hope the above sound meaningful and make sense.
With best of personal regards.
Kgboy.
March 12th, 2006 at 7:50 am
Jong,
If you seriously look into all the complex structure of living things and the scientific laws governing both physical and nonphysical things around us you would wonder how is it possible that such complex structure be the result of the coming together of things by accident. The complex and highly intelligent stem cells is a good example. The myriads of living things emerging from a single cell with intelligent advanced enough to eventually develop into multicellular being with multitudes of cells performing diversed functions in perfect synchronicity. Our brain is such wonder. It requires myriads of microchemical reactions involving thousands of complex chemicals working with atomic clock precision together with millions and/or billions or even trillions of cells firing electrical impulses to just allow me the simple task of putting my thoughts into a few words here. The biggest supercomputer in the world today pales in comparision to our brain both in terms of complexity and the number of memory capacity (in comparision to the RAM and ROM). I certainly think that the computers (think of the PC in front of us that allow us to communicate with such ease today) results of years of research involving thousands of scientists and billions or perhaps trillions of dollars of research fund, certainly not an accidentally coming together of silicon and electrical components to form.
I am not sure ‘who’ created this complex world. I certainly dare not speculate that it (this complex world) is the result of some freak accident. At this moment in time, I feel comfortable to attribute such creation to God.
Fathol.
Religion a name we use to honour and acknowledge God, in the beginning involves blind faith. As the human specie progressed, our understanding of the world around us should be exploited to further understand God’s creation. Blind faith should gradually be replaced with enlightenment and understanding. However, there seem to be many who continue to ignore such findings and the intention of God. God has given us the ability to learn through conditioning such that what we learnt can be retrieved instantaneously to allow us to react aptly without much delay (Dr Edward de Bono in his book of creativity succintly explained this idea of conditioning and espounded merits and demerits of such an inherent system). Such instant judgement has many merits. However, like fire, water and many of God’s gift to mankind, it is a double edged sword. Our learning through conditioning created a huge monster amongs us. It’s bigotry.
Professor Wilder Penfield, a neorusurgeon discovered that not only are human able to record sight, sound and touch, we are able to remember smell, touch, and even emotions. Professor Penfield discovery formed the basis of Dr Eric Berne’s research into human behaviour. Dr Eric Berne’s research lead him to some very beneficial and enlightening psychological theories of ‘transactional analysis’. One of the character developed in us due to conditioning is the ‘parent’ It is the prejudicial part of us that often rares its ugly heads amongst us. Such bevahiour would depend on how strong the preconditioning during the developmental stage of our life. The more dramatic is the conditioning, the stronger the ‘parent’ character. For example, if a parent is killed by someone, whether due to racial or religious misunderstanding or not, the children even not having witness the incident directly, but related repeated by someone to him during his developmental years with constant reference to the ethnicity of the killer/s, would form a prejudice so deep that it would be difficult to rid himself of the prejudice even if eventually he experiences more subsequent kindness from people of the same ethnicity as his parent’s killer/s. Hence, the vicious cycle continues. It is not difficult to find such example in this world of wars.
When I first stumbled into this blog, I know very little about Dr Bakri except for some mention here and there in some other blogs and in Malaysiakini. Apologies Doc. As I started to read Dr Bakri books online, I begin to acquire an addiction to this blog not only because of Doc’s writing which is the result of his open minded stand but also the quality of the comments. Being a student of science, Doc has used his understanding of the world around him and extrapolate into many issues. Being also a student of science, I must be careful not to allow bigotry or biasness get into my system.
I share with Dr Bakri his concept of ridding narrow mindset through liberal and open education lest we create a society of bigots. These are ofcourse not Dr Bakri’s words but my interpretation.
Hence, my constant reference to this block especially the comments column for education and hopefull rid myself of my own bigotry.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:45 am
Bro Din,
I am fine and have taken a back seat since doing my Hajj. I believe Keris_Always is still out there unsheath sine Hishamuddin Hussein decided to unsheat the keris.
Someone once told me this. God is like electricity. You cannot see it, feel it or touch it. But you know it exist and what it can do; light a lightbulb, heat a home, run equipment and like GE ads “makes good things to life” But mess around with it and you will get a shock. Touch the live wire and you will be electrocuted. It can kill you and can also resuscitate you especially when they jump start you when you stop breathing. So like electricity respect God.
I, like you visit this blog everyday however due to some commentators who like to attack a whole race and religion I refrain from commenting as i find these people stupid, bigot and offensive and cannot accept difference in opinion and views without shouting the other person down. However of late i notice he has toned down.
I may be visiting KL soon and perhaps we can have a teh tarik or probably hang out to listen to some live music of a different era.
March 12th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
I read most of the posting here about God and faith. It is so refreshing and I enjoy reading it. I must say I learn a lot here, form you “seniors”. You folks seem have put a lot of time on “deep thinking” about many issues. Boy, I am inspired and I say to myself, if only these set/pattern of thinking are the mainstream thinking out there. (how wishful!).
Fair Malaysian Says:
March 11th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Am I going to be judged, if there is a creator-cum-god based on the label of a religion or as a human being when I leave this mortal body? ……….. Because, at the end of the day, I can see a “human being” but not god and I prefer to invest my hopes in what I can see rather than some or any shadowy object that would equate to “that not seen, both literally and figuratively, is non-existent”.
I would like to share with you the thinking of Blaise Pascal, (the pressure unit guy) which makes sense to me at least.
This is an exact quote from a book I read,
“ If God exist, the religious believers can look forward to an infinity of happiness; however, if there is no god, then nothing has been scarified by becoming a believers, (what have you got to loose?, ask Pascal). The upshot is that wagering on the existence of God is a “sure things”- safe bet.”
Cheers.
March 12th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
Kgboy, Din Merican, Fathol, Fair Malaysian, Ogre, Amy’s Daddy and others:
Thank you all for taking your time, sharing your thoughts and beliefs. Your input has been most enriching in this healthy matured discussion and I respect each and one of your chosen paths.
Religion, has always been the source of man’s artistic and cultural inspiration. In the course of history, many have come into being only to pass away and be forgotten, each one in its time no doubt, had contributed towards human progress.
Whatever paths each of us take, the universal law, “Good begets good and bad begets bad” - that’s ’cause and effect’ , you reap what you sow. I always believe in as long as we live an honest decent life, I’m sure we’ll automatically go to heaven(if there’s a heaven) when we die, wouldn’t we?Having said that, I am quite certain Heaven will be a very lonely place to be in, for not many have made it.
March 12th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
Oops correction: para 1, line 3
“…and I respect each and everyone for yonr chosen paths.”
March 12th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
oops again, slip of the finger, no fault of the mind!
“..and I respect each and everyone for your chosen paths.”
March 12th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Dear All,
I am ever so glad that I have created a response from all of the regulars here including Bro Din who has even even branded me as an Islamist. For Bro Din’s information there is no such thing as an Islamist. This word has been created by the press and it shall remain so except if we want to politicise everything.
When I see all the response it gives me lots of hope for us fellow Malaysians who in this blog has expreess their faith in the unseen though we all differ in their interpretations.
Dear All, whatever our religion are we all follow the basic principle of goodness in doing things. What I am saying here is stick to that fundamental belief and do not argue by taking the principles from Islam, christianity, humanism, socrates to strengthen your point. If we must argue about Islam stick to the Quran and Sunnah, and if you argue about christianity or humanism stick to the bible or that philosophy,
So if Marina and our bro din wants to argue about the cause of women in Islam stick to the Quran and Sunnah. The chapter on women in the Quran, surah “Al Nisah” is one of the longest passage in the Quran, so read this carefully and also those written by learned peope in this area. Who are GK Baharein, Bro Din Or Sister Marina, or the Sisters of Islam, to reinterprete what the Quran, the prophet and the learned ulamas says? No we cant reinterprete what they have done because we do not know enough.
By reinterpreting what the learned has done, we have just created seperate sects, just like Bro Din, who has called me an Islamist. If I am so then what is he? To me we are both brothers in Islam and if we both study the fundamentals properly we should have not differed in our views nor should we be callings each other names!
Differences in religion arose because of politics and a lack of understanding of the principles and the foundation of it, read the history of civilisation and you will find this to be true.
Religion is supposed to be a unifying force and not otherwise. We may differ in the interpretations but should never difer in the fundamentals and the principles
Simply, said there are no Hindu God or Christian God or Islamic God. There is only the one God for those who belief for all. From Adam to Mohamed they preached the same thing it was mankind, or those who uses too much of the intelect that created the differences that we have in this world today.
Think about it!!
Salam and Peace to All
GKB
March 12th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Ogre:
Thanks.
When you are in KL, please call or sms me at 013-6088-173, and we can meet up.
As for music, you are welcome to visit my place to sample my collection of cds ranging from Classical, Jazz, country, R&B and popular music of the ’40s, ’50s, 60’s and 70’s to Indonesian kerongcong music of Ismail Marzuki and violinist Idris Sardi, and the music and songs of P. Ramlee, Saloma, Katrina Dahari, Rafeah Buang, S.M Salim, J. Mizan, my cousin Ahmad Daud, and Sanisah Huri.
Tea Tarik and roti chanai are expensive now, thanks to Badawi. But no problem. I learned to make good tea tarik long ago. So I am now in a good situation to cut cost and beat “profiteering”. I am also proud of this foresight.
Kgboy, Jong and Fair Malaysian:
Thanks for your comments and generous remarks. I must not allow them to go to my head. Humility is the best policy since it is key to continuous self learning, reading and the love of the good books and poetry.
My late Umi’s maiden name was Caroline Doral, a Roman Catholic. When she married my late mercurial Merican Dad, she became Fatimah, a convert to Islam, and was a Hajjah in the 1950s when she, as a member of a Medical team, served our pilgrims in Mecca (1954). Tun Dr. Siti Hasmah, her wonderful boss at Alor Setar General Hospital, affectionately calls her “Mak Aji” in her biography.
My Umi’s approach towards religion influenced me a lot since her work as a Staff Nurse and later as Matron involved interactions with Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Confucians and Taoists, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists. In conservative Alor Setar of the ’40s and ’50s, I attended kindergarten at St. Nicholas Convent (I am sure Keris_always remembers this school) and did my schooling like journalist/scribe Dato’ A. Kadir Jasin (visit http://www.akadirjasin.com) and world renowned artist extraordinaire, Dato Ibrahim Hussein, at St. Michael’s School, Alor Setar, a “sekolah Kristian”, before joining the Penang Free School.
I did Scripture for my Cambridge School Certificate and learned to read The Holy Quran and to pray at a sekolah pondok in the Warders’ Quarters in Jalan Day (now Jalan Sultanah). At University in my first year, I studied Islam and Islamic History under the late Tan Sri Dr Abdul Rauf who later became Rector at our Universiti Islam Antarabangsa.
I guess my varied exposure to various religions enable me to walk into a Church, or a temple. I have done that often to pay my respects to my departed non-Muslim friends. I have ever since maintained a deep reading interest in comparative religions. I respect the “Dignity of Difference” (Rabbi Jonathan Sacks has written an excellent book with the same title).
Kgboy, I, therefore, agree that it is, to quote you, “Perception, perception and perception”, that prism through which we all see and react to our surroundings and the “other”. Mentoring, liberal education, and environment have a huge influence on our attitudes, perception, and behavioral responses. They certainly did mine.
If we keep our young separate from their “other” friends in school and university and make them exclusive by over-emphasing religious insularity and its trimmings like the tudung for political reasons, we are helping to promote ‘disunity”, in stead of UNITY founded on Sack’s Dignity of Difference.
In making the above comment, I am not suggesting that my experience works for everyone. But I find it helps me because I have been able to co-exist in our plural society, and elsewhere (like in Cambodia which is a predominantly Buddhist society).
Education, liberal education, is vital. I find a lot of reasons why I share Dr. Bakri views on Education. My own education was liberal and my view of Islam is equally liberal; yet I have remained a conservative (in the Burkian sense) in my views on economics and politics, and rather traditional in the practice of my religion. Despite all the paradoxes and contradictions, I am quite happy for being me, warts and all.
Thanks for all the wonderful exchanges. But we must never forget that there is yet plenty to be done, one of which is what Marina Mahathir has aptly described as “Aparthied” against Muslim women in respect of their human rights. If Rafidah, Shahrizat and others of their ilk wont do it, we can do it by exposing trangressions against all Malaysian women.
I support gender equality. We may debate about what equality means, but injustice to our women can no longer be tolerated. Thanks, Marina for your article.
Regards.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:11 pm
GKB:
Pardon me for this question - What is fundamentals and principles when interpretation differs?
Thank you.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
GK Baharein,
Thanks. I have read the Surah you mentioned and the various translations and tafsirans. In the end, I use my own common sense and logic and will not accept the Ulamaks blindly. This is the point Kassim Ahmad is making in his reply to Kevin Tan’s article in the Sun (see above).
I am sorry if you took offence to my using the “Islamist” label on you. You are quite exceptional in this case. I know many Malays who would be pleased with that label. Some even want to to Arabs, forgetting that not all Arabs are Muslims.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
Bro Din,
Thanks, I will certainly give you a call or SMS you when I am in KL. By the way looking at your taste in music, your upbringing, schooling etc, there is so much similarity between you and me. My mom was a Matron in KL. I attended a Methodist School and took scripture right up to Form 3. I have no hesitation of walking into a church or temple. My belief in Islam is now more stronger than ever having completed all the 5 pillars.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Orge,
Make sure you bring along your 50% tin of nescafe! hehehe!
March 12th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Jong,
Quite cute. I am sure that IpohEcho’s Fathol and you are collaborating to cut cost too. He!He!
March 12th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
A minor correction here - I’m not with Fathol Zaman in Ipoh Echo although I do lend some help when needed. We are volunteers at ICW(Ipoh City Watch), an NGO where he’s the president.
Again thanks to Badawi, petrol has naik .30 sen and we have to dig further into our pockets for expenses(NGOs must eat, drink and travel too, at our expense) when going about our voluntary contribution, for the betterment of Ipoh - amongst many - to encourage openness, transparency and accountability in the running of Ipoh City, foster municipality-NGOs-media coalition on ecological and sustainable development.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
Jong,
Good work and I hope it works,I mean, the idea of openness,transparency and accountability in the affairs of Ipoh City.Maybe your Mayor can show what is possible for the benefit of his counterpart in Kuala Lumpur.I assume your toilets are cleaner than the ones we have in the national capital. To you and Fathol, good collaboration. Thanks.
March 13th, 2006 at 12:28 am
Din Merican:
I have an idea, what about me proposing you lead an NGO “Toilet Watch Msia” then we round up people like Karam Singh Wallia of tv3 to join in?
March 13th, 2006 at 7:22 am
Hi Friends:
That was a very wonderful discussion despite our diverse inputs.
G K Baharein: I like that: all gods are the same - salute to you. Even with our diverse background and differing views, we have certainly made Dr. Bakri proud - that we have “matured” and let the authorities take note. We have a matured society that can respect one another in terms of race and religion.
So Bro Din, looks like you being the senior would one day arrange for a round-table discussion over a cup of tea/coffee.
Good day to all.
March 13th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Din Merican, you said:
“Good work and I hope it works, I mean, the idea of openness, transparency and accountability in the affairs of Ipoh City.Maybe your Mayor can show what is possible for the benefit of his counterpart in Kuala Lumpur. ”
Let’s put it this way, if you try there’s a 50-50% chance you get things done but if you don’t, it’s 0% . Here in ICW, we try and hopefully they get tired of us and give in or at least meet us halfway. If that happens, it’s already success for us.
Let me give you an example - Recently ICW, the eyes and ears of Ipoh through our president Fathol Zaman approached the mayor Dato Hassan Nawawi at its Feb 2006 MBI Full Board meeting. He brought up our concern re the poor lighting of Ipoh’s prime park - the Polo Ground which has always been most popular with health buffs, especially the seniors who are always there as early as 0530 hrs each morning.
We also drew the mayor’s attention to a recent attempted rape/molest of a female jogger at one of those dark spots. The case was not reported in the mainstream media but it did instill fear among the early birds who frequent the park for their morning exercise. Dato Hassan made a note of it and promised to look into the matter. This was highlighted in community tabloid, Ipoh Echo issue No.4 on 16 Feb 2006.
You won’t believe it, it worked. Within 2 weeks four(4) spotlights were erected and fixed at that particular spot and what a great relief it was for our Ipoh health buffs - joggers, runners, tai chi participants and seniors alike!
Credit must be given to our Mayor Dato Nawawi Hassan for making our request a ‘priority’ project. Our deep appreciation for his help. Terima kasih Dato!
For ICW, that’s an achievement however small; most importantly our contribution does help make Ipoh a safer place to stay.
March 14th, 2006 at 2:05 am
I truly enjoyed reading such a matured discussion and I give my salute to each one of you here for your individual wisdom. A great many things for me to learn. I will visit more often.
March 16th, 2006 at 4:21 am
Dear Jong,
Let us make Mr. Karam Singh Wallia, our Amal Hijrah winner, President, Toilet Watchers Association of Malaysia. He is very good at identifying problem areas. This will also keep him busy and away from being made a stooge of his TV3 bosses, friends of KayJay, who are trying to embarass and discredit Selangor’s MB Mohd Khir Toyo. I am sure Selangor is not the only place where environmental conditions have deteriorated rapidly due to commercial development.
I find Mr. Singh’s gestures very amusing. He keeps pumping his left hand in the air as he delivers his comments and pantuns. Watch him next time and count the number of times he does that per report in Berita Utama TV3. Thanks.
March 16th, 2006 at 6:01 am
Din,
I didn’t know you’re that observant! Nasib baik he pumps his hand in the air which means situation still bearable. Watch out when he starts hitting his forehead, Mohd Khir Toyo better watch his butt !
March 17th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Thanks, Jong. I watch TV Berita Utama not for national news since it is mostly propanganda stuff. I am a fan of Sdr K.S. Wallia. His gestures and pantuns provide some comic relief from the tedium in Badawiland. Dia pun nak cari makan.
I hope to drop in Ipoh to meet FZ and his colleagues at IpohEcho soon and would like the chance to meet up with you and find out more about your NGO work. Regards.
March 17th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Correction: “propaganda”, not propanganda.
March 17th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Hi Din,
You are most welcomed to ’silverland’, no doubt it has lost much of its shine and once upon a time pride itself as the 2nd largest producing region of tin ore in the world after Brazil! Today, silverland’s coffer’s robbed dry by corruption and irresponsible govt management.
You’ve got a date at 0530 hours at Ipoh’s pologround for brisk walk, tai chi and/or jog if you are interested. You can witness for yourself first hand the effect of the newly installed spotlights in the park. After that I’ll buy you coffee and banana leaf rice.
Btw, no need to bring along your 50% tin of nescafe lah, I can still afford to belanja you, your wife and daughter a cuppa each!
March 19th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Jong,
Will take you on that. I will come alone. FZ and I are working to make this visit possible. Will keep you informed.
BTW, my granduncle was the late Dato Panglima Kinta, Eusoff. My grandpa, Kassim Merican, married his sister. So Perak is of sentimental value to me. I also think Raja Dr. Nazrin is a very special person. Thanks.
March 19th, 2006 at 11:36 pm
Good, my pleasure. I’ll liase with FZ re your eta, trust he will do a good job making your stay a memorable one; perhaps a visit to Istana Kinta too? Do let FZ know if you have anything in particular that you want to do when in Ipoh. He’s the best and most reliable person to approach. I’m now in Penang, should be back in Ipoh end of the week.
Btw HRH goes for his morning stroll at pologround too, often around 0715 hrs with his large colourful entourage.
Looking forward to meeting up with you.
October 1st, 2006 at 8:06 am
[...] nk through this post before releasing into the wild. Therefore the need of adding links : Our Own Apartheid - Marina Mahathir (on Bakri Musa’s blog) [...]
April 28th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Dear Fair Malaysian,
You said,
“Look at the divisions in the name of religion and what more than the divisions within each religion. The holy site of one Muslim sect was bombed by another Muslim sect in Iraq, causing so much of bloodshed and even lives. In Pakistan, it is no better, particularly after Friday prayers. Isn’t that very shameful. The long running fued between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland is starkly staring at us. In fact, every religion faces similar idiosyncrasis.
Millions of lives were lost in Iraq when wishful Bush went on an adventurous streak, incidentally because god commanded him to do so. The unsightly sufferings of the Bosnians at the hands of Serbs is still lingering in the minds of many. On a false pretext, Hindus unfairly mobbed and killed thousands of innocent Muslims. Is that what Hinduism teaches or the gods teach? Where were the gods when the innocent Iraqi children were maimed by an aggresive force? The vivid memory of the skeletal sight of Bosnians - where was god then?”
Well answer this,
What about Marxism and Communism?? ( They do not believe in God). Yet, they killed a lot of people.
So is it God, religion or people to blame?
March 11th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
My concern on Malay’s future under DAP rule.
Afraid, they may seek INDEPENDENT just like S’pore.
Ur point oif view. As we all knw, DAP is parti serpihan PAP(People Action Party) of S’pore