Learning Islam By Writing About It
Learning Islam by Writing About It
[A slightly shorter version appeared in the Sun , Weekend edition, November 18, 2005]
Writing on Islam is one way for me to learn about my faith. When I do, I can count on receiving many responses, some passionate and a few, extreme, to the point of crudity.
I am deeply appreciative of those who are supportive of my views. Often they lament that they are unable to express their own thoughts and feelings in Malaysia because of fear and other reasons. This further reinforces my gratitude to Allah for this freedom I enjoy living in the West. It also reminds me of the awesome responsibilities that go along with that freedom.
This freedom enables me to explore the rich heritage of my faith. To my delight, many of the spiritual and theological issues I have been struggling with have engaged the greatest minds in Islam, past and present. Far from undermining my faith, such exposures have strengthened it. Back in Malaysia, they would jail or at the very least, brand me a “deviationists” for daring to “stray.”
To the Malaysian Islamic establishment, and others, we would solve all that ails Muslims if only we could go back to the original “pure” Islam, as defined by them of course.
Categories of Critics
Those who disagree with me fall roughly into three categories. First are those who are sincerely concerned with my personal salvation. The second are the ulama and others with impeccable Islamic credentials who disdainfully dismiss me for daring to comment on matters they claim to be their exclusive preserve. The third smugly proclaim that their ulama, gurus or scholars are “smarter” and more learned than mine, and that I have been “misled.”
Repent, the first group would earnestly plead to me, before it is too late! They would even pray for my salvation should I do so. While I am touched by their concerns about my entering Heaven, nonetheless I cannot believe something that does not make sense to me. After all, God gave me akal (reason), and I value that divine gift by fully using it.
The overriding and recurring message of the Quran is to command good and forbid evil. This is further reinforced by the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon his soul. When an alim, no matter how pious and impeccably credentialed, exhorts me to “kill the infidels” while heavily quoting the Quran or Hadith, the message does not resonate with me. Tak masuk akal (It does not make sense), as we say back in my kampong. That does not mean that I do not believe in the Quran or Hadith, rather only that alim’s interpretation.
On the Day of Judgment, the Good Lord will judge me solely on my own actions and niat (intentions). I cannot excuse them, says the Quran, by saying that I am following the teachings of that great alim or this eminent scholar. There is no “Being a Good German” defense in Islam, that is, no excuse for merely following orders.
Those in the second group would chide me for even daring to write about Islam. How presumptuous of me dwelling in the land of the infidels and who could recite but a few short verses of the Quran to enter into a discourse with a hafiz (someone who has memorized the entire Quran) and who had spent decades with the great ulama at Al-Azhar. Such insolence and cheekiness on my part!
Let me answer them by resorting to the teaching manner of our great prophet Muhammad s.a.w., that is, by an anecdote. May Allah forgive me if I sound pretentious!
Imagine if a simple kampong woman were to consult me for a cancerous lump in her breast. I recommended surgery. She demurred, preferring instead to seek herbal treatment and the advice of a bomoh. She had heard of terrible complications from surgery; even death!
Should I then berate her for her temerity to challenge the diagnosis and advice of an experienced surgeon with years of training and multiple degrees to boot? Can’t she tell that from all those fancy-framed diplomas on my wall? Should I then contemptuously dismiss her? After all, what does she know about oncology, pharmacology, immunology, and all the other “-logies.” She does not even know the meaning of the word “cell,” much less a cancerous one!
Or, should I address her concerns? Yes, people do die and have bad complications from their surgery. Fortunately today, with well-trained surgeons and anesthesiologists, as well as wonderful drugs, modern surgery is safe. Yes, the occasional unfortunate few have complications and indeed die. Perfection after all is only with Allah.
With the first approach, I am effectively denigrating her, treating her as inferior to me. That is ‘unIslamic.’ We are all equal. I may be better at performing surgery than she is at carving her chicken, but then she could stir up a mean rendang better that I could. By treating her with respect, that is, as an equal, she may even change her mind and opt for the life-saving surgery. Even if she does not, at least she would have a better understanding of modern medicine. She would be better for it, and I would have the satisfaction of having contributed something towards her enlightenment. In contrast, with the first approach, she would definitely be turned off by modern medicine and doctors.
No doubt, some conservative Muslims would take exception to this example. To them, I as a male have no business examining women’s breasts. Yes, my examining of breasts may seem like fondling to a layperson, but my niat or intention, is different. I am trying to save her life, a meritorious act by any standard or Holy Book, not gratifying my erotic senses.
I have little to add for the third group. It is not productive to engage them; it would just be a spitting contest (or pissing contest, in the colorful language of local cowboys). They simply would dismiss me as being under the spell of the “orientalists” and “deviationists.”
The surprise is that this attitude is also prevalent among Muslim intellectuals and scholars. Obviously they have not learned from their illustrious predecessors who eagerly learned from the Greeks, Romans and Hindus, and then went on to make their own seminal contributions. The likes of Ibn Sini were not at all bothered that they were learning from the infidels.
Another argument these modern ulama frequently advance is that their interpretations and translations are the only true and valid ones. All others are simply adulterations (bida’a) of our great faith. Their certitude merely betrays their arrogance, not to mention their intellectual shallowness.
They forget that all translations are at best approximate; they all involve some interpreting and editorializing.
Dealing with Rude Responses
I do get my share of rude and crude comments. I always respond courteously – initially. Invariably they reply with apologies. The old adage, goodwill begets more goodwill, works. There are exceptions, however. For those relatively few, the powerful click of the mighty mouse – delete – does wonders to my sanity and psyche!
Some of the most obnoxious and vulgar e-mails I get are from otherwise upright citizens, respected commentators, and seemingly pious ulama. Regardless, the mighty mouse does not care. They do not in any way detract me from continually striving to learn about my faith; hence this essay.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:33 pm
i got a problem with this 72 virgins being in the welcoming commitee thing. can anybody please help and put me out of my misery??
November 18th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
Cynic
If you are interested to know, maybe the time has come for you to go read The Quran and find out for yourself. There are many translated version available but I suggest you get the version by A Yusof Ali. If you are lazy to read, try the digital version from Elitniaga Consulting in MidValley City.
November 18th, 2005 at 6:19 pm
Cynic,
What Ogre said is true. Though, here is a quick description of the virgins…
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=60188&dgn=4
Bro Bakri,
It is true that in Malaysia, people (in general) tend to stick to what they were thought back in the old days and what were passed down by the older generations - even if the ’stuff’ involves shirk, bid’ah, etc. I encountered some difficulties myself trying to be different, from some of the knowledge I’ve learnt while being in the States. Nevertheless, that does not grant us the license to be arrogant or sombong, believing that we know better than the other. Being that, it will only make us even lower than the one being advised. May Allah protect us and keep arrogance away from our attitude, insya-Allah.
Just one thing to add to what you have said though. While it is true Allah has given us ‘akal to think, Islam cannot be viewed/intepreted by logic only. To some extend, yes, logic and science can be used. But when the the topic of fiqh/ibadah and tawheed are concerned, dalils from the Quran and sunnah (from the intepretation of the righteous predecessors) are required. I doubt this is neither your nor my nor the readers here field of expertise. This is why we need to refer back to the ulama’s. The problem I have, at least from my observation, is that most people tend to quote what the tok guru said and the tok guru refered to his tok guru… They should be refering straight to the Quran and Hadeeth instead. Well we all may remember the ‘telefon buruk’ game, where when the info is being passed from one person to another, some way or the other it will get distorted. Similar case here.
Anyway, I guess I have written long enough for newbie in this world. May Allah guide us all to the straight path, for whomsoever Allah have guided cannot be misguided and whomsoever Allah have misguided cannot be guided, insya-Allah.
wassalam
~peace out~
November 18th, 2005 at 7:47 pm
Dear Bakri,
I met up with Kassim Ahmad and Chandra Muzaffar yesterday (Friday, November 18) at the Marriott Hotel, Putrajaya. They both convey their regards to you.
Our session lasted 3 hours, during we talked about various issues including the Sunni-Shia battle for hegemony in Islam, the use of Islam by the state to controlling our private lives and preventing our open and rational discourse, also Badawi’s 10 Principles (Rukuns) of Islam Hadari (he doubled them from 5 rukuns), and the problems relating to American imperialism and the looming contest between political Christianity and Islam. We also touched on the jihadist violence in Iraq and around the world, and the revelations in John Perkin’s book.
On Islam, it was our conclusion is that the Quran is centered on Tawhid and if we focus on its true meaning and stop our emphasis on the ritualistic aspects of our universal religion, and end religious policing, we would have come a long way in reaching some consensus about the future of the Malays. We can no longer rule by fear, bigotry, and prejudice.
On the other matters, we think we have entered in a stage in human history where the battle of ideas at the international level will rage on with intensity. Are we in the Muslim world prepared for this? Are we willing to use our resources to engage our best minds to challenge with ideas of intellectuals like Bernard Lewis, the Neo-Conservatives, and the Christian Right and others of the Western world led by the United States.
We feel that George W. Bush and Tony Blair are just tools of the formidable Anglo-American military-industrial complex and Christian ideologues. It will be a matter of time when both men will no longer be in power. But the battle will continue no matter who the next US President in 2008, or the successor to Blair will be.
We lamented the fact that the Malaysian Government is, for example, not prepared to support NGOs who are in the forefront of this struggle to restore the image of Islam as a religion that is progressive, inclusive, and peaceful. We have a good message for the world, but we do not have the resources to carry it through.
So, the less time we spent debating matters of little consequence like “Kafir Mengafir”, and politicising our religion to control the Malay mind, the better it will be for Malaysia. Perhaps, Mr. Baju, Ogre and others can talk about Tawhid, in stead of quoting verses of the Quran and the Hadith.
Thanks.
November 18th, 2005 at 9:33 pm
Dear Bro Din
The Christians have their Universities and Schools of Theology where they sent their priests for training and to learn about other religions before sending them on mission or as missionaries. They have numerous PhD including some in comparative religion. The Muslims in Malaysia don’t have that sort of facilities and so we continue to berdakwah amongst the Muslims instead of engaging the non Muslims. We still believe that reading the Bible is against Islam. There is nothing wrong in reading the Bible and getting knowledge about Christianity as long as our Iman is strong.
We also put emphasis on Solah, Fasting and Zakat Fitrah while shying away from discussing other aspects or practices of Islam. While Praying, fasting and paying Zakat Fitrah is the pillars of Islam, the way it has been brought across sometimes lead to contemp. I have come across many people complaining about the inconvenience of praying at the appointed time and also grudgingly paying the Zakat Fitrah. Taking it a step further paying Zakat is mandatory and should be done willingly. We should spend in the ways of Allah freely. If you notice the Christians are very philantrophic and will give money to every type of charity. But fortune seems to flow their way too. The richest people spend millions on charity and they still enjoy Allah’s bounty.
I am not qualified as Mr Baju to talk about Tawhid. I am still learning and I hope to be able to do my Hajj end of the year. So I would reserve my comments for the time being.
November 19th, 2005 at 12:02 am
Thanks Ogre, over to Mr. Baju.
November 19th, 2005 at 4:03 am
it looks to me that god is sexist ie he treats man differently from woman.
in the days of the suicide bomber, jihadists would go on to claim their 72 virgins. but what do the female suicide bombers claim for themselves when they reach paradise?
Baju - are you there?
November 19th, 2005 at 6:01 am
I am puzzled why rape victims from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia and Nigeria had to prove their innocence, failing which they got sentenced to death by stoning. It was only after international outcry that the sentence was set aside.
November 19th, 2005 at 8:30 am
Islam follows the Old Testament. Islamic fundamentalists interpret the Prophet’s instructions literally.
They were stoning people in the Old Testament days - before the time of Jesus and Prophet Mohammad. It is not peculiar to Muslims.
Remember the New Testament and the time when Jesus said, “Let him who has no sin cast the first stone.”? (at the woman believed to be Mary Magdalene, who was possesed by was it seven or six demons?).
In the Old Testament days 3,000 years before Christ, they were also marrying their own sisters and daughters. Remember the tales of Sodom and Gomorha - Prophet Abraham’s (God of Abraham is the God of Moses and the Jews) nephew had sex with his own two daughters because everybody else was believed dead?
If Adam and Eve were the first two human beings, then to populate the earth descendants of Adam and Eve must have been having sex with their own brothers and sisters.
Today Malays marry their cousins (first cousins included) and followers of Lim Kit Siang are saying openly in his blog - blog.limkitsiang.com - that as a result Malays are genetically flawed - hence stupid and need Art. 153 of the Constitution to help them along.
Your comment please Mr. Baju?
And Dr. Bakri, is it advisable to marry cousins?
November 19th, 2005 at 9:06 am
Dear Dr Bakri and all,
Would it be wise for non-Muslims to participate?
November 19th, 2005 at 10:03 am
Dear Kgboy:
Allah in His wisdom did not dispense His knowledege on Islam (or on anything else for that matter) only on Muslims, or some other “chosen people.” I have learned a lot about my faith from non-Muslims, as well as from religious and non-religious people.
I value all the contributions of my readers. An insight or element of wisdom can come from anyone. I go further. As a student of the life sciences, I gain great insights from plants and animals, even viruses and bacteria!
If you can enlighten the discussions further, please share with us.
M. Bakri Musa
November 19th, 2005 at 11:00 am
Kgboy,
with due respect to you, if you are referring to my comments earlier dr. bakri’s reply says it all.
we should not limit the discourse to muslims only. there is no reason why. i am a student of the bible. we pray to the same god. i have deep respect for all religions.
chandra mudzaffar aka chandrasekhran pillai and i went to school together. he was a hindu before he became a muslim. if you feel your faith threatened by reading the bible (or by being in the company of non-Muslims) perhaps you should not read it. but for those who like to strengthen their faith, their convictions and their beliefs, they should read as widely as possible and not be afraid of taking on the other in a debate. you will emerge a better muslim - or be a cynic, agnostic etc.
I direct this question to dr. bakri as he is learned in the way of the sciences:
are malays genetically flawed because they marry relatives i.e. first cousins etc? i hesitate to say “inbreeding” because the term itself carries negative connotations. there is nothing in the bible or in the koran that forbids marriage between relatives i.e. first cousins etc - or is there? but then the bible and the koran were written down 2,000 to 1,500 years ago. the torah or the first five chapters of the christian bible referred to a period 3,000 years before.
November 19th, 2005 at 11:15 am
P.S.
dr. bakri working in the states, in his work as a surgeon must have come across jews (the “children” of abraham and moses - “God’s chosen people”) in his profession. jews, christians and muslims are people of the Book and are allowed to intermarry and not give up their faith.
the late tun suffian married “bunny” (his nickname for his late wife) - his wife remained a non-muslim till she died. she was jewish. it is sad that in that case, muslim religious officials took possession of the body of the deceased wife from the mortuary and had her buried in the muslim cemetery - without reference to her own wishes, and that of her now late husband.
where am i going with my comments? well, we should not be afraid to discuss issues, contrary to what kgboy feels, issues which affect all the three great religions especially when there are people talking about the future in terms of the clash of civilizations - the begining of yet another crusade etc
November 19th, 2005 at 2:23 pm
You may want to read this extract from genetic studies by Perth University, Australia.
Religious and legal regulation of consanguineous marriage
Religious proscription
There appears to be no particular rationale for the subdivision of human populations
into opposing forms of marriage preference, and even within the major religions there are
quite marked differences in attitude to close kin marriage. Thus in Christianity, the Orthodox
churches prohibit consanguineous marriage, the Roman Catholic church currently requires
Diocesan permission for marriages between first cousins, and the Protestant denominations
permit marriages up to and including first cousin unions (Bittles et al. 2001).
A similar degree of non-uniformity exists in Hinduism. The Aryan Hindus of
northern India prohibit marriage between biological kin for approximately seven generations
on the male side and five generations on the female side (Kapadia 1958). By comparison,
Dravidian Hindus of South India strongly favour marriage between first cousins of the type
mother’s brother’s daughter (MBD) and, particularly in the states of Andhra Pradesh,
Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, uncle-niece marriages also are widely contracted.
In general, Muslim regulations on marriage parallel the Judaic pattern detailed in
Leviticus 18: 7-18. However, uncle-niece unions are permitted in Judaism. Yet they are
forbidden by the Koran, even though double first cousin marriages, which have the same
coefficient of inbreeding (F = 0.125), are recognized within Islam. In southern Asia,
Buddhism sanctions marriage between first cousins, as does the Zoroastrian/Parsi tradition.
The Sikh religion forbids consanguineous marriage, although some minority Sikh groups
appear to exercise flexibility in the observance of this proscription.
Legislation
A similar lack of coherence exists in legislation enacted in different countries to
govern permitted types of consanguineous relationships in marriage. For example, first
cousin marriages are legal in countries such as the U.K. and Australia, but they are criminal
offences in eight of the states of the U.S.A. and illegal in a further 31 states (Ottenheimer
1990). Yet exceptions can be incorporated into state laws, for example, to permit uncle-niece
marriage within the Jewish community of Rhode Island (Bratt 1984). Legislation approved
and adopted at the national level may also prove to be inoperable in practice, as exemplified
by the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955 which includes a ban on uncle-niece marriage (Kapadia
1958). Yet in a study conducted between 1980 and 1989 in Bangalore and Mysore, the two
November 19th, 2005 at 4:12 pm
cynic
you are right.
Malaysia is one of those countries that forces people to convert when they marry a Muslim but I’m not sure when this was implemented.
My brother trained to become a de La Salle brother and he told us that people of the Book do not need to convert when they marry - ie Christians, Jews and Muslims.
I did watch a ChannelNewsAsia program once when they interviewed a PM of a Middle East country and he mentioned he was a Muslim, his wife was Christian and they allowed their two children to decide when they grew up.
I thought such a possibility in Malaysia would reduce so much pain among families when their children fell in love with someone of a different religion and would definitely improve religious tolerance.
November 19th, 2005 at 6:12 pm
Kgboy,
This is a free world of ideas. If you are worried to share your thoughts, then we are all losers.
Why self censor when it comes to discussing Islam or other religions? We need inter-civilisational or inter-faith dialogue more than ever now, if we are going to fight extremisms be they from the right or from the left. We need to fight Islamic obsurantism as well as Pat Robertson and the Christian Right, and stop the jihadist terrorism and the coming of the US-led hegemonic Third Crusade.
Thanks.
November 19th, 2005 at 6:58 pm
Dear Hj Angus,
in indonesia it is not uncomman for muslims and christians to be married. in malaysia? no way! but i was told by my ustaz that if the christian or jews profess the “original” teaching of Nabi Isa or Nabi Musa …then they can be married to a muslims for they are what we called “ahli kitab’…. i don’t know …just something i remember …
November 19th, 2005 at 11:58 pm
Dear sam
I am not a Hj!
It just happens my initials are H.J. and so I shorten to HJ.
Many years ago I knew a Malay girl who was a Christian though she did not talk much about it.
Her mother was a Filipina who married a Malay but all the children were baptised!
I guess the father must have consented to that arrangement or the mother somehow managed to get the children baptised.
I understand that our Constitution was changed during Mahathir’s time so that the Islamic courts are now on equal footing with the civil courts and that is why cases on Islam and apostates are not handled by the civil courts anymore.
That’s what happens when you have a doctor meddling with the constitution without a proper discussion and no feed-back from the population.
Maybe I can ask the members in this forum. What are your thoughts on those who want to change their religion?
At one time the Catholic Church used to condemn them and there used to be all kinds of prayers for infidels etc.
November 20th, 2005 at 4:19 am
Hj,
If you are a Muslim, there is no way you can convert and stay in Malaysia to practise your new religion. You will be angushed for good, man.
Your indentity card states your religion. So changing it is problematic. Thanks.
November 20th, 2005 at 5:35 am
Right on, Mr. Din Merican…
I am a Malay and have converted to the religion of my wife - and have fled good ‘ol Malaysia for good.
I am a liberal in my thoughts and views about most matters. I believe we all pray to the same God.
I asked my pastor, what would happen to a non-Christian who led a good life believing and teaching the word of God, and has never known Christ, and a bad Christian who never came to know Christ personally.
His answer: God in his mercy knows (what to do). He does not believe a non-Christian who never came to know Christ goes to Hell.
Muslims in Malaysia will unhesitatingly say to you: You will go to Hell if you are an infidel. Period.
(Note: The word ‘infidel” meaning ‘non-believer’ was first used by Christians).
H J (not haji) Angus,
Reading the Federal Constitution and the state constitutions together, the muslim religion is clearly expressed as a state matter. This is evident from various constitutional provisions including the one concerning the Agong as head of the muslim religion. Shariah law and shariah courts were established in furtherance to these provisions in our Federal constitution. There was conflict as to which court (civil or shariah) has jurisdiction over what matters concerning the muslim religion - whether it was exclusive or otherwise. for a long time this issue was not tested in the courts - until recently when the issue concerning which court, civil or shariah, has exclusive jurisdiction went to the federal court. The Federal court, the country’s highest court of appeal, simply kicked the ball back to the shariah court not to decide the issue but to say the matter is simply a matter within their exclusive jurisdiction.
This decision drove the nails into the coffin of Malay apostasy in Malaysia.
Until Parliament re-defines what a Malay is according to the Federal constitution, apostasy among Malays will continue to be criminalised.
What happened to Ayah Pin?
The Malay girl who married the Indian Catholic from citibank fled to Australia - the most recent case post-1999 to receive wide publicity, a case which prompted the IGP to comment that he would not hesitate to have anybody arrested if there was, in his opinion, a threat to public order.
November 20th, 2005 at 5:44 am
To add further, UMNO will never allow Malays the religious freedom they need because this is one sure wayt o lose Malay Muslim support and would dash any hope they may still have of ever forming the next government.
November 20th, 2005 at 6:13 am
Assalamualaikum wmt wbt
Dear Cynic and other fellow seekers of knowledge and the Truth:
You said that you are a student of the Bible, I’m inviting you to be a student of Al-Quran also. I owned many Bibles and multiple copies of translation of Al-Quran. If you do not own one, I’ll be more than happy to send you one. When you study the Quran, you must let it “reveal” itself to you. At a minimum, Muslim must read and finish reading the Quran once a year, during the month of Ramadhan. Each time, you will get different guidance (hidayah). Also, as you read, you will see that some verses, Allah address us as, “Oh mankind (Ya Ayyuh AnNas)”, “Oh Ye who Believes (Ya Ayyuh Alladzi na Aamanu)”, “Ya Bani-Israel (to the Jews)” etc.
So, pay closer attention to the verses where Allah is addressing mankind, because the message is for you, our non-Muslim brothers and sisters! And read with open heart and sincerity.
In the Quran, it is stated clearly who a person cannot marry. Surah An-Nisa, ayat 23:
Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father’s sisters, Mother’s sisters; brother’s daughters, sister’s daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives’ mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
I think it is clear that marrying your first cousin is allowed by Allah.
And yes, the children of Adam and Eve, in the beginning, did marry their own brothers and sisters, but not from the same birth; Eve was said to give birth to many sets of twins. (Note in the above ayah, the Quran said “except for what is past”). And I think you, Cynic, know this.
As far as the question regarding Tawhid, it all started with:
Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
If we truly understand and absorb this, you’ve understood a third of the Quran.
I made hijrah to this country (USA), fi-sabillilah, for the pleasure of Allah, because I see it as an opportunity to learn more about Islam. Yes, it sounds odd, but it is true. Alhamdullillah, Allah has blessed me with a good husband who loves Islam as much as I do. For in the end, Allah didn’t care that you were a surgeon, a professor, a lawyer, a fisherman, an ulama or anything, but what was in your heart, what provisions have you accumulated for the Akhirah, what have you done with what was given to you. (For great power given you, comes great responsibilty–from Spiderman — and this is true)
November 20th, 2005 at 6:17 am
P/S Do you want to know who our enemy is? It is not the non-Muslim. It is Syaitan ar-rajim. With that in mind, we, Muslims have work to do. We must do tabligh (for Muslims) and dakwah (to others).
November 20th, 2005 at 6:25 am
ummi i would like to ask you the same question as i asked my pastor:
where do you go, heaven or hell, if you are not a muslim?
November 20th, 2005 at 6:26 am
P.S>
and how does spiderman come into the picture?
November 20th, 2005 at 6:53 am
Cynic, if I were your pastor, my answer is God is not interested in labels. On Judgement Day, the King will separate the people one from another. The good ones on the right and the others on the left. He will say to the right, “come and take your inheritance. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you visited me.
“Then the righteous will answer Him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty give you something to drink?
“The King will reply, “I tell you the truth, whatever you did for the least of these brothers of mine, you did it for me.
“Then He will say to the left, “Depart from me you evil doers.”
God is very stern towards those who display their piety but are judgemental and self-righteous without love and compassion for their fellow human beings.
November 20th, 2005 at 7:07 am
Ummi Muhammad,
Agree with you that the real enemy is Satan. How do we reconcile a Benevolent God in the midst of violence and cruelty of our existence? I pondered coz I have a friend who was widowed. Very nice and loving couple who give their lives for people. They have 2 kids who were still young at that time.
Then I have a senior colleague who is talented and blessed with a wonderful wife but he goes around seducing girls of his daughter’s age and wives of other people thro internet relay chat. Yet he is a very active church-goer.
One day, I asked him whether he believed in God. He unequivocably told me he did. However, he explained his only weakness is lust. He even made a colleague pregnant and went for abortion.
His adultery is none of my business. But the many women he had hurt made me wonder why he is so “blessed.” Am not saying out of jealousy but I could not reconcile how he can get away all these years.
November 20th, 2005 at 10:09 am
Dear Cynic
You wrote”are malays genetically flawed because they marry relatives”
This is an article from USA Today regarding this matter
“Research downplays risk of cousin marriages”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2002-04-04-cousins.htm
You can also read the research paper here.
http://www.med.umich.edu/hg/EDUCATION/COURSES/542/pdfs/douglas-long%2520pdfs/Mar18_Bennett.pdf
I hope this answer your questions.
Thanks
November 20th, 2005 at 12:30 pm
I constantly marvel at God’s creation of all things in this universe.
Darwin’s proposition (I am not going to call it a theory) is the one of the most common controversial conflict between science and religion even amongst the students of Christian Science Colleges.
I personally believe that I know God better through science. Every cell in our body has intelligence far exceed our human ability to even comprehend what more duplicate. Thanks to you Dr. Bakri for adding one more vote to my believe. Our body is such a complex chemical factory and electrical circuitory that it is simply impossible to conclude that we are the result of an accidental coming together of some elements that created unicellular creatures which also eventually evolved into humans. Gods’s hand in everywhere. The periodic table in Chemistry is a good example. The complex life cycle of an insect like butterfly another.
Studying the bible and trying to interpret God’s teaching requires much more effort than Quantum Mechanics. I am not sure about the Koran. I believe it too is. It often raises more questions than answers. That’s why I believe in our pursuit of God’s teaching, we constantly end up in disputes so serious as to even sacrificing our lives in defence of our own interpretion of God.
Many in the past had viewed God from different platforms. I am sure many more in the future would further inflate the statistics. How to knowing God, a book written by Dr Deepak Chopra is one of them. He gives me further insight into God from another perspective.
There are many paths available to us leading to God. Does God bestow any special right for any group of people to shine the light on the path leading to Him?
November 20th, 2005 at 2:23 pm
Well, the Jews say they have a direct hot line to God - which makes them the “chosen” people. The Jews are still waiting for their messiah to come - 2,000 years later.
November 20th, 2005 at 2:49 pm
However, going back to my original question which has been side-tracked i.e.
Some say Malays - as a result of their practice of marrying their own cousins - are genetically flawed and hence stupid and would need protection like Article 153 of the Constitution - to ensure that they would survive the competition with the other races.
You hear this being repeated in political blogs like blog.limkitsiang.com when they discuss how standards in our tertiary educational institutions took a beatling lately.
The Koran does not forbid this practice but it does not mean it should be followed. Scientific research has established the following:
(quote)
In the US, cousin marriages are taboo and are banned in 24 states. According to recent research, there is an increased risk of genetic defects in the case of cousin marriages, though not at the level popularly believed.
First cousins are somewhat more likely than unrelated parents to have a child with a serious birth defect, mental retardation or genetic disease, but their increased risk is nowhere near as large as most people think, the scientists said.
In the general population, the risk that a child will be born with a serious problem like spina bifida or cystic fibrosis is 3 percent to 4 percent; to that background risk, first cousins must add another 1.7 to 2.8 percentage points, the report said.
Although the increase represents a near doubling of the risk, the result is still not considered large enough to discourage cousins from having children, said Dr. Arno Motulsky, a professor emeritus of medicine and genome sciences at the University of Washington, and the senior author of the report.
November 20th, 2005 at 7:26 pm
Cynic,
All surveys and experiemnts begin with some aims. The results depend on the questions asked during the formation of the hypothesis and the way in which data are collected. Statistics and data can be skewed to favour a hypothesis. It is not uncommon to hear of scientists maninuplating their experimental data just as to provide proof to verify their hypothesis. Usually for continuation of research fund. And in the field of marketing, surveys skewed to create demand for certain products and services. There are also claims that Eintein cheated.
Unless the sampling researched is large enough, the results of the survey could not be confirmed for reliability. Are there good number of American marry their first cousins as compared to their population?
There are data collected that even for cheetah in the wild that the lack of gene pool serious affected their ability to survive both in terms of their immunity against diseases and the performance of their bodily functions critically required of them during hunts.
I believe in diversity of the human genes. Apart from the biological benefits, imagine a society of different cultures intermarrying to create a global ethnicity? In particular Malaysians? I am fortunate to have many such people I call friends. Their children are truely something we would be proud of humanity.
I am not sure of God’s intention in this area. Good question to ask Cynic.
November 20th, 2005 at 7:58 pm
Dear Cynic,
Don’t be cynical. You have made your choice, and I hope you are happy with your decision. I respect that, although I may not understand the need to change in order to marry the lady you love.
All religions teach us to do “good” things, to honour life and respect the dignity of difference. But I wish to point out that Islam is not the problem, it never was, and never will be. But it is in how we practise Islam matters. Some use Islam to dominate and overpower others. In so doing, they tend to promote theirs as the “best way”, the only way, and demand compliance by legal and political means.
Others use it to justify the killing innocent men, women and children for political causes (as in Iraq, Indonesia, Spain, Britain, Jordan and Southern Thailand). George Bush, in turn, is no exception when he invaded and now occupies in present day Iraq, hiding his imperialist ambitions(control over oil) and Christain Right self-righteousness (fight against “evil” Islamic regimes) behind democracy and freedom.
I am in favour of a more open interpretation of the Quran, one which is in keeping with present circumstances and the stage of human development, recognising that we are living in a plural, open and globalised world, where knowledge and technology are the main drivers of progress. Although you are a Christian, you should continue to visit the Quran, the Torah (if you wish), the Hindu, Confucian,Taoist and Buddhist writings like you do the Bible.
In the case of Islam and the Quran, I suggest you read Yusuf Ali’s translation, Al-Arabi, Ibn Rasjid and their contemporaries, Iqbal (India), Fazlur Rahman, Al-Faruqi, Zaiuddin Sardar, and a group of writers like Kassim Ahmad, (Malaysia), Bakri Musa, the late Nurcholish Madjid (Indonesia) and his friends, Amina Wadud (US), Chandra Muzaffar (Malaysia), Farish Noor (a Malaysian now based in Berlin), Syed Hoessein Nasr (George Washington University), the enlightened Iman of New York (whose name escapes me at this time), Osman Bakar and John Esposito (both at Georgetown University), Zainah Anwar (Malaysia at Sisters in Islam),and others in Egypt and Jordan. I call them “Progressives”, although I try to avoid labels.
I hope that you will avoid the need to justify your change of Faith on the grounds that Islam is exclusivist,obscurantist and zenophobic, and that the “Other” is more liberating. Islam is, in reality, universalist and all embracing (if you understand the true meaning of tawhid). When I refer to Islam, I do not mean politicized Islam.
Thank you Ummi for your clarification on Tawhid.
Thanks.
November 20th, 2005 at 10:16 pm
10-4 Ogre,
No news from our Mr. Baju. Perhaps, he is doing more research.
November 20th, 2005 at 10:18 pm
10-4 Ogre,
Our Fair Malaysian, n news from him either. I know Keris-always won’t comment.
November 20th, 2005 at 10:19 pm
“Where do you go, hell or heaven, if you are not Muslim?”
To Cynic, to answer your question, allow me to quote a famous quote from Tupac Shakur: “Only God can judge me”. I don’t think anyone here, whether you are Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus Sabean, etc can claim that they will exclusively go to Heaven. That Knowledge and Judgement is only with the Creator.
Which denominations of Christianity do your pastor belong to? I can say that in all of the church services I’ve been to, the message has been that “you will be saved only thru believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God” and you can only go to heaven if you believe in Jesus. How did he explain to you the concept of Trinity? In the Quran, there are these beautiful verses our fellow Christian readers should read, Surah 5,
116. And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
117. “Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, ‘worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord’; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118. “If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise.”
119. Allah will say: “This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah. That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).
120. To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.
Getting back to the question of tawhid, perhaps we should start the discourse by examining the first surah of the Quran, Al-Fatihah.
Surah 1. The Opening
1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray
Each day Muslims recite this surah at least 17 times during our salat. And each time we are asking Allah to include us among those He has bestowed His Grace, and not of those whose has gained His wrath (referring to the Jews) and not of those who has been led astray (referring to the Christians). Insya Allah, if we say this with all sincerety, Allah will guide you.
P/S
Spiderman’s quote came into the picture because you can get knowledge and wisdom from anywhere and everywhere. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
November 20th, 2005 at 10:29 pm
Fellas,
Originally, I wanted to use Ogre as my pen name but I see it has been. Then I thought about Orgess, but I was afraid that keris-always and tina will get the wrong idea.
I have been following this website. Of late, I find there is too much Islam and religion on it. It is getting boring. Cant we move on to more secular and down to earth subjects?
Who is interested in a welcoming party of 72 virgins waiting for us at the Gates of Heaven? It is a cynic to raise this matter. Thanks, Pak Din, for the last paragraph of your comment and wish for Mr. Cynic. Let us hope Mr. Cynic is not like any other new convert in his enthusiasm for his new Faith.
November 20th, 2005 at 11:24 pm
Dear All,
I hope Dr. Bakri who has written an interesting book on education in Malaysia can explain why our Universities are in such a terrible state of mental disrepair. How can we fix this malaise? Is there too much political interference? What is really wrong with the people who are appointed to head these institutions? Why are we happy to be second or third raters? Why are we always choosing to benchmark ourselves against those who are doing worse than us?
Can our Professor Din Merican at the University of Cambodia share his thoughts on the subject of peak performance? How can we, for example, develop the Vince Lombardi winning mindset in our society? “Winning isn’t the only thing, it is everything”, says the legendary coach of the Super Bowl champions, Green Bay Packers.
For me, it is about hard work, discipline and drive, personal integrity and sacrifice (giving up immediate gratification for a better future). These are traits of champions like Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods, Sacchin Tandukar, Vijay Singh or Roger Bannister. In short, it is about total dedication and focus.
We can think of the Sidek Brothers in Badminton, and we forget about the two Indian Malaysians who scaled the peak of Mount Everest. If Nicole David was not a British Squash Champion, she would have been marginalized. We honor jaguh kampong types. We forget Dr. Mani Jegathesan, the fastest man in Asia at one time, and a brilliant medical researcher. Yet we make a big splash about the Malay sailor, a Mansor chap from Perlis who sailed round the world, and we honoured the English Channel swimmer, Penang Mamak Mydin with a Datoship. So much whoha about the lady who crossed the South Pole.
Is it fair to scapegoat Tun Dr. Mahathir for our problems? What is the present Prime Minister doing, apart from pontificating from his bully pulpit?
Has Malaysia entered in a period of Khaldunian secular decline, which Farish Noor talked about his writings in Malaysiakini.com? So soon? I thought we haven’t even begun our scaling up to the peak.
The above are serious issues which we must address.Escaping into a discourse on Islam is unhelpful, unless we see a connection between Islam as we practise it in Malaysia, and our social decline. Why are the Chinese doing better, despite the challenges they face including policy biases against them? Those 72 Virgins at the Gates of Heaven cannot help.
I am told that soon next month Tunku Razaleigh Hamzah, the former leader of Semangat 46 who sold out his party to return to UMNO, is organising a national seminar to discuss the future of the Malays. Again all talk and politics.We continue to screw each other, all for nothing except for ego gratificationand name recognition.
How sad Malaysia can be.
November 20th, 2005 at 11:48 pm
Dear Cynic,
Where do you sleep, in the guest toilet or in the guest room, if you come to my house?
November 21st, 2005 at 12:34 am
Dear AKMoon,
There’s in deed a connection between Islam as we practise and our social decay!
German Professor Joseph Hell once wrote :
“Even at the Universities religion retained its primacy, for was it not religion which first opened the path to learning? The Qur’an, tradition, jurisprudence therfor- all these preserved their pre-eminence there. But it is to the credit of Islam that it neither slighted nor ignored other branches of learning;nay, it offered the very same home to them as it did to theology- a place in the mosque. Until the 5th century of the Hijrah [12th century CE] the mosque was the university of Islam; and to this fact is due the most characteristic feature of Islamic culture “pefect freedom to teach”. The teacher had to pass no examination, required no diploma, no formality, to launch out in that capacity. What he needed was competence, efficiency, mastery of his subject.”
November 21st, 2005 at 1:44 am
Sorry Guys,
A distraction.
Peter Drucker, hailed as the world’s most important thinker on management and the role of corporations, died in California on November 11th, at the age of 95. Mr Drucker, who left Austria in his youth, was given the epithets of “guru” and “sage”, though he thought of himself chiefly as a writer and teacher.
This small country of Austria is a host to such well known personalities. Albert Einstein, Arnold Schwarzenegger……
As a young executive trying to move upward along the corridor of management, I often sought Peter Drucker’s principles of management both for insight and solace.
Sorry, back to religion.
AK Moon,
In our mundane preoccupation with living, some issues become serious like in running of a country at one extreme, but religions offer us a counter balance at the other extreme. Life without religion is like a computer infected with a virus running in loops generating zero’s and one’s to clog up the RAM. Let’s not mix up religons with the ones politicised. I do not believe our current global problems with terrorism is related to religion. Its basically a case of selfish individuals and groups abusing religion for politics. Our problems in this so called ‘real world’ is a result, I think, of lack of religion rather than too much religion. Just MHO.
Thank you.
November 21st, 2005 at 2:13 am
Din Merican: “George Bush, in turn, is no exception when he invaded and now occupies in present day Iraq, hiding his imperialist ambitions(control over oil) and Christain Right self-righteousness (fight against “evil” Islamic regimes) behind democracy and freedom. Although you are a Christian, you should continue to visit the Quran, the Torah (if you wish), the Hindu, Confucian,Taoist and Buddhist writings like you do the Bible. ”
Hello Din. I have a few questions:
1. What do you think of US intervention to repell Saddam from Kuwait and halting Serbian aggression against Bosnians? If the US withdraws once the Iraqi’s have a sustainable form of self-governance, what will you say?
2. The US was against all ideologies that are oppressive to their people. China, North Korea, USSR, Cuba, not only the Middle East. And what else can you call a regime that cuts off your ear should you say a single word against Saddam, rapes your females relatives to silence you or oppresses other religions or gasses entire villages for political opposition? Why paint it as Muslims vs Christian? I find that Muslims like to do this: cultivate an “us vs them” mentality. Even in Malaysia, Muslims have drawn a dividing line and split the country.
November 21st, 2005 at 2:14 am
Din Merican: “George Bush, in turn, is no exception when he invaded and now occupies in present day Iraq, hiding his imperialist ambitions(control over oil) and Christain Right self-righteousness (fight against “evil” Islamic regimes) behind democracy and freedom. Although you are a Christian, you should continue to visit the Quran, the Torah (if you wish), the Hindu, Confucian,Taoist and Buddhist writings like you do the Bible. ”
Oops, sorry, forgot my last question. You advised Cynic to read books from other faiths which is well and good. However, would you advise Muslims to do the same without any strings attached?
November 21st, 2005 at 5:48 am
This discourse on Islam is going all directions!
I need to gather my thoughts yet again - to delve more into the issue of the 72 virgins in the welcoming commitee sponsored by Wanita Umno.
My question on what awaits the female suicide bomber in Heaven, has gone answered by Ummi. I am anxiously waiting for her answer. So far our learned friend from Washington DC has been evading the real question which is directed to her by quoting verses in the Koran. The Koran is said to be written in pure, beautiful Arabic - and I dont understand Arabic, to begin with. The translation into English serves only to confuse.
Mr. Din Merican who did his postgrad in the States some years ago, has taken the liberal view on the subject of apostasy - and I commend him for that. His is a breath of fresh air. I am sure his beautiful Cambodian wife has not made the “mandatory” switch to Islam as she certainly must if she were to live in Malaysia. As a Mulsim, Din Merican still need to contend with the hostility of fellow Malay Muslims in Malaysia about allowing his wife to remain a non-Muslim.
To Ummi - my question here is what is the status of the marriage between a Muslim and a non-Muslim? I am told that if you were to marry a non-Muslim and convert her/him to Islam, your status is that of someone who blows himself/herself up in defense of Islam. Din Merican has decided to forego his entitlement to the 72 virgins - according to this school of thought.
November 21st, 2005 at 5:55 am
I would like to welcome comments fron the host Dr. Bakri as I suspect he is married a white American Christian. Correct me if I am wrong - as I know so little about the good doctor.
November 21st, 2005 at 7:18 am
There is also a fourth category of critics one who has little or no compunction to brand and berate someone who questions the religion as an apostate or a disbeliever. I really do not know on whose authority are they speaking for.
I have come across such individuals before and will meet them again and again. The moment you raise a doubt they will make mincemeat of your questions without the benefit of an answer(s).
I was asked this several times by my non-Malay friends and have yet to provide a suitable answer. If Allah is Yang Maha Esa. Maha Penyayang, Maha Pengaseh and Merciful why then He had created so many religions and had decreed that Islam is The Religion for his subjects to follow?
One ustaz said that this was the righteous way and that the children of Adam must abide. Anyone who disputes is considered a munafiq and Hell is his place.
Honestly, I am stumped.
I married off my son in Melbourne and the akad nikah was solemnised by the imam of Preston mosque. Unbeknown to us the father of the bride had gone missing and therefore a rightul wali was absent. The imam did not make an issue of it and accepted the bride’s mother as a wali, instead.
Back home I was told that the marriage was null and void and the couple had to register their union at the local syariah court.
We are concerned for the form rather than the substance of the religion. We are dead silent on corruption, nepotism, incest, drugs and a myriad of other social ills which seem to affect Muslim Malays.
The likely reason for our arrogance is because we are the majority. But our brethren down south seem so meek and voiceless.
November 21st, 2005 at 8:52 am
Here’s an extract I posted to Malaysiakini last August, just another viewpoint to the debate - no offence intended.
God did not create religion. Man did. The reason why there are so many religions is because each of us are at a different level of spiritual development and understanding. The various religions are necessary because there are people who need what these religions teach. I am sure Ayah Pin understood this concept very clearly.
Religions are man-made to control man. Man does not need religion if he could turn within himself. If I were God, the Almighty, why would I need man to convince humankind that I exist? Every religion has its own explanation.
I believe there is a Creator who gave us intelligence. Use it with logic to seek the truth and not be blinded by faith and emotion. God made many different kinds of people, why would he allow only one way to serve him? Ayah Pin could certainly agree with that.
Here are some quotations to ponder:
Joseph Fort Newton – ‘Belief is truth held in the mind; faith is a fire in the heart.’
Steven Weinberg - ‘With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.’
Blaise Pascal - ‘Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.’
November 21st, 2005 at 2:25 pm
Looking-from-outside says
“God did not create religion. Man did. The reason why there are so many religions is because each of us are at a different level of spiritual development and understanding.”
Of course, God did not say, “Here it is. This is your religion. Take it. Those who disobey me will go to Hell.”
God created Man in His own image - meaning Man does not know what Sin is. But eversince Man (Adam and Eve) ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Right and Wrong, he knew the difference - and ever since then he has been sinning, disobeying God’s instructions at every turn.
God gave us His messengers, the Prophets to lead us the way towards our redemption and our salvation. He gave us his son Jesus to die on the cross thus redeeming our sins so that we could be saved from eternal death.
Those who believe in Him wiill have eternal life.
There are only three great religons in the world today- Judaism, Christianiity and Islam. All three share the same God since all three say there is only one God. They share the same prophets of the old Testament, hence they follow the same teachings.
God did not “give” Man a religion or religions. Religion is Man’s way to connect with his Creator.
November 21st, 2005 at 5:19 pm
To looking-inside-out,
You wrote, “There are only three great religions in the world today - Judaism, Christianiity and Islam.” give away your limited knowledge of religions in the world. Allow me to refer you to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html for some enlightenment.
I have no wish to argue on the subject of religion neither would I wish to impose my belief on anyone. Religion is personal and my posting here is merely my opinion on the subject and hope that others are aware of the diversity of faith and belief system practised throughout the world and in particular, in Malaysia.
The stance taken by Malaysian government on the issue of Religious freedom for the Malay and non-Malay is another issue.
Another contentious issue is whether Islam can be separated from politics. In this aspect UMNO use religion as a political tool whereas for PAS, Islam is very much part of politics.
We could learn from History about the separation between State and Religion. However, when it comes to faith, logic is non-existence and emotion reigns.
There is much to be done in Malaysia about the Civil and the Shariah Laws on a number of issues. Unfortunately, we have bigoted views from some zealous religious officials who are hostile to the InterFaith Commission. It seems Muslim in Malaysia must be shielded/protected from any possible exposure to other faith. How’s that going to bridge the understanding from Muslims to the other religion?
In UK, student study various religions in the Religious Education subject in most schools. In Malaysia, Muslims are segegrated from non-Muslim who have to attend moral studies. It would have been great if all students are made to understand the various religions together.
For indepth religious studies of each faith, the responsibility belongs to the mosque, church or temple.
Is this the destiny for Malaysia?. In a globalised world market, what role does religion play?
November 21st, 2005 at 6:28 pm
In a globalised world market, unfortunately, religion is non-player. It’s only in Malaysia, and some bigoted countries, does religion play a part - for very good reasons, obviously. Over here it’s to keep the Malay majority in check.
In the West, the seperation of politics and religion is clearly defined so you don’t see government-sanctioned religious programmes on tv and radio like we do here. And where the words of the mullahs are law into itself.
Religion, like someone commented, is personal and, therefore, should remain as such. When religon is being institutionised like we do in Malaysia, then there is little room left for debate and discussion. What’s being dished out is the truth and branding someone as “kafir” and “munafiq” becomes the norm.
An old friend once cautioned me that it was my responsibility to teach my subordinates the path of truth if not I would be sinned and punished in the hereafter. He now goes around with a “tasbeh”, a skull cap and a goatee.
Coming from someone who drank and womanised, I was a little amused Since when had he repented and become a saint? When I discovered that his wife and children had forsaken him only then I realise the sham.
There are those who profess such belief and have, conveniently, disposed off all worldly attachments, including their families, in order to be a “tabliq.”
Is this the righteous way?
November 21st, 2005 at 7:14 pm
God’s decision and will should not be taken in its human sense, for God’s knowledge is neither universal nor particular, but transcending both, in a way unintelligible to the human mind, beyond understanding. Devine cannot be measured by the standards of man.
In discussing things like the 72 virgins, diversity of religions, heaven and hell etc, please do it in this context. The imponderable decisions of God cannot be weighed by the scales of reason. Right or wrong are normally discussed by man in the context of human concepts but God is not bound by them.
November 21st, 2005 at 9:04 pm
Dear Bintang,
Right from the outset, allow me to state my position.
Let me say to you and our other friends that I believe America has the ideals and values as embodied in the 1776 Spirit of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton and Benjamin Franklin (Read Alexis de Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America”), means, and power to make the world a better place.
The way to do that is by winning friends and by building trust, not by creating enemies and destroying social capital. Cooperation, not oppression to achieve domination, should be the option for America in our interdependent globalised world. With cooperation, we can, for example, make poverty history.
Now to answer your questions.
Bintang Says:
November 21st, 2005 at 2:13 am
“Hello Din. I have a few questions:
1. What do you think of US intervention to repel Saddam from Kuwait and halting Serbian aggression against Bosnians? If the US withdraws once the Iraqi’s have a sustainable form of self-governance, what will you say?”
Din Merican’s answer:
“First, let us examine the approach taken by Bush Sr (G.H.W) in 1990 and that of Bush Jr (G.W) on Iraq post 911. Both are Republicans. Father and son were educated at Yale ( Bush Jr also has a Harvard MBA), and belonged to Skulls and Bones when they were students in New Haven. Bush Sr. was a Navy Pilot and World War II hero in the Asia-Pacific Theatre. Bush Jr. never in any war. I think Bush Sr. understood war.
Next. On Kuwait, Bush Sr. acted because Saddam’s Iraq had invaded another sovereign state. He had international support through the UN which he cultivated with great networking skills and diplomacy. His military actions with the backing of the British, the French and other allies were intended to restore the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Kuwait. He did not go to Baghdad since his mandate from the UN Security Council was limited. Of course, we can argue that he should have gone in to “get Saddam”. But the fact is that he did not.
BTW, Bush Sr. got Japan, Germany and the Emir of Kuwait to pay for the war. The Americans made some profit, and in addition, Bush Sr. got contracts for American companies for the reconstruction of that war ravaged country! That is smart, don’t you think so?
Bush Jr’s policy is one of regime change and the right of preemption through the exercise of military power. He took advantage of international sympathy after September 11, 2001 when Osama ben Laden and his terrorists exploded the World Trade Center in New York, and attacked the Pentagon in Washington D.C. The Neo-Conservatives with people like Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and others provided the intellectual support and rationale for the use of military power to achieve US Foreign Policy goals, which, I consider, were blatantly imperialistic. I suggest you read James Mann’s “Rise of The Vulcans: The History of Bush’s War Cabinet” to appreciate what Bush Jr.’s America really is about.
Furthermore, the grounds for invading Iraq (I have no particular affection or admiration for Saddan Hussein, tyrants and tin pot dictators) were dubious. Colin Powell gambled his outstanding reputation and brilliant career in the service of his country, when at the UN Security Council he made the case for war. Let us hope, he will reveal his feelings on this episode, when he completes his memiors as Secretary of State. Even Blair is politically weakened as a result of supporting Bush Jr. in Iraq.
Iraq is in a mess now, and a civil war (Sunnis Versus Shias) is a real possibility, not democracy. There is also strong pressure from the American people and their representatives to bring US troops home. Do you think Bush spent USD billions for altruistic reasons? For freedom and democracy, or for its imperial designs in oil rich Iraq (with the second largest proven oil reserves after Saudi Arabia), and the Middle East? Think again.
On Bosnia, the US under Clinton acted too late to prevent ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. Clinton at the time was recovering from the folly of American intervention in Somalia. He was forced to bomb Yugoslavia only under mounting international pressure, in particular from Muslim countries including Malaysia, after the European Union failed to prevent the slaughter of Muslim Bosnians.
The Europeans apparently did not want a viable Muslim state in their backyard. The Germans supported their Serbs, the French suffered from Islamic zenophobia, and the British put too much faith in diplomacy. They, therefore, wittingly or unwittingly, turned a blind eye to the ethnic killing of Bosnians, and the rape of Bosnian women by Serbian forces.
“2. The US was against all ideologies that are oppressive to their people. China, North Korea, USSR, Cuba, not only the Middle East. And what else can you call a regime that cuts off your ear should you say a single word against Saddam, rapes your females relatives to silence you or oppresses other religions or gasses entire villages for political opposition? Why paint it as Muslims vs Christian? I find that Muslims like to do this: cultivate an “us vs them” mentality. Even in Malaysia, Muslims have drawn a dividing line and split the country”.
Din Merican’s reply:
Hey are you talking about Bush Jr. or the rest of the world when you mentioned the “Us versus Them” mentality. Go back to the Bush Jr’s State of Union Address a few ago. He, like his hero Ronald Wilson Reagan, saw the world in terms of “good versus evil” or “either with us or against us” paradigm. Cowboy talk. It is not that simple in the 21st century.
America is equally brutal. Only recall the massive bombings of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, napalm and orange deforestation agents. Look at recent revelations about the treatment of prisoners in secret prisons, Guantanamo (Git-mo), and Abu Gharib and collateral damage in Iraq.
The only difference between Saddam and the US is that the latter is the sole military and economic power post 1989 collapse of the Soviet Union. It acts with impunity because it is a hegemon. Bush Jr makes no bones about his willingness to use military power to further American interests.
Please do not get me wrong. I am not against the American people. I was educated in the United States years ago, and experienced and admired their generosity and openness. Even today, Americans are generous in their response to the December 26, 2004 Tsunami and the recent Earthquake in Pakistan.
I am not against the US Government as I repect the choice of the American poeple, but I am more circumspect these days when it comes to US Foreign Policy. Bush Jr’s policy of regime change and the right of preemption gives me sleepless nights.
Thanks.
November 21st, 2005 at 10:22 pm
Looking-inside-out says:
“There are only three great religons in the world today- Judaism, Christianiity and Islam. All three share the same God since all three say there is only one God. They share the same prophets of the old Testament, hence they follow the same teachings.”
kgboy say:
I would be more comfortable if you use the word ‘popular’ instead of ‘great’. No offence to the followers of these religions. Somehow the word ‘great’ sounded exclusivistic.
and earlier:
“That’s why I believe in our pursuit of God’s teaching, we constantly end up in disputes so serious as to even sacrificing our lives in defence of our own interpretion of God.
There are many paths available to us leading to God. Does God bestow any special right for any group of people to shine the light on the path leading to Him?”
To looking-inside-out says:
You wrote, “There are only three great religions in the world today - Judaism, Christianiity and Islam.” give away your limited knowledge of religions in the world. Allow me to refer you to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html for some enlightenment.
Spot on. You took the words out of my mouth on this.
November 21st, 2005 at 11:26 pm
Dear AKMoon,
I do not know how to deal with your question relating to building character and leadership. I want to avoid the nature (genes) versus nurture and environment debate. I would suggest you read the first chapter in Bakri Musa’s book, “The Malay Dilemma Revisited”, where he challenges the eugenics of Dr. Mahathir as in his 1970 controversial tome, “The Malay Dilemma”.
Also get a copy of the reissued Senu Abdul Rahman’s “Revolusi Mental”. It may be worthwhile for you to also read Syed Hussein Alatas’ The Myth of the Lazy Native. Michael Barr’s “Lee Kuan Yew:The Man and His Beliefs” can be insightful as we examine the challenges for the Malay community.
Vince Lombardi’s son has written a book about his Dad’s philosophy and coaching methods. I am not sure we can apply Lombard’is approach in toto to handle the Malay character issue. I, however, accept that adversity and comeback from the brink experience (the Toynbeeian challenge and response mode) can be a good teacher. But people do break down under such trying conditions, unless the community is supportive. So mentoring, good role models, and heroes are important when we want to mould our young into “towering Malays” (not just talk only).
The Chinese have their clan and culture system and their history to support their struggling kind. The Malays, on the other hand, are in the habit of damning and ostracising the underdog. In fact, the Malays always deliberately seek to bring down the successful or “smart” man by fair or foul means.The Malays have a lot of Phds (Penghianat Hasad Dengki types).
Religion does help (Mr. Baju will be happy here), but total reliance on it does not ensure that a man in the dumbs will recover from adversity. It , however, keeps him sane.
I know Dr. Jega well. He told me once in a conversation over tea tarik near his office that he had to sacrifice and work very hard to achieve not only academic but sporting excellence. I think he has a vision of himself. The fact that he had supportive parents and brothers who were themselves good sportsmen must have helped. But I believe God gave him special talent, and great physical and mental constitution to be an exceptional athlete. What strikes me most about Dr. Jega is his humility. Dia tidak besar kepala (Not big headed).
So, I would say that, other things being equal, hard work, dedication, integrity, focus and discipline plus huge doses of humility are what it would take be a Dr. Mani Jegathesan. In that sense, Lombardi is right is his view that as a coach, one must be able to identify and nurture talent. I hope, my comments are helpful.
Maybe psychologists and motivation experts among us (I know we have motivational speakers on TV3 and TV1 each morning) can help you to understand the phenomenon of Malay underachievement.
Thanks.
November 22nd, 2005 at 5:19 am
Dear Cynic
Only Allah knows the rewards for a female suicide bomber. To begin with, all our actions is judged from our intention. Do these people blow themselves up truly for Allah? Or was it for show? What a way to go, in the Hereafter, you thought that you die syahid, but end up being thrown in Hellfire for committing suicide.
When you are enlightened and reunited with The Beloved, you don’t care what rewards you get. I think that the “72 virgins promise” was made to encourage people who are still stuck in this physical earth and the physical desires and wants. Remember, we are also promised land with the rivers flow in the Quran. The Bedouin Arabs living in the desert can relate to this easily because water is vital for live. We need to read and ponder, contemplate and meditate.
I also want to note to Cynic that there is no compulsion in Islam. “Truth is manifestly clear from taghut”. You are free to choose the path but be truthful and honest with yourself. Although I was raised as Muslim, I do read and study about other faiths and from my studying I’ve come to the conclusion that Islam is the path for me. Allah doesn’t need anything from us, not our prayers, fasting, zakat etc. All these actions are for ourselves. To me, it has been an honor to be His slave and servant.
You asked me also about Muslim marrying non-Muslim. I’ve seen that happening many times over here. Marriage is a challenge by itself, and when the two people follow two different ones, it is more so. The encouragement for Muslim men to marry Muslim women is to preserved the faith. Allowing Muslim men to marry women of Ahl-Kitab is to propagate the faith. Muslim women can only marry Muslim men. I’ve seen the Muslim women losing her faith otherwise. Anyway, before you make the decision to marry this person or that one, you are advised to pray and ask for Allah’s guidance, you pray that the person you choose will not damage your faith. I’m sure you know about all this, Cynic, because I think you were raised a Muslim. Like Bro. Din said before, you do not need to change your faith when you marry your wife but you choose to.
Looking-inside-out Says
“He gave us his son Jesus to die on the cross thus redeeming our sins so that we could be saved from eternal death. Those who believe in Him wiill have eternal life.” Please forgive me for asking this, but does this concept make sense? How can you let someone else take responsibilty for your sins? You kill or rob someone, then you let someone else take the punishment, in this case, Jesus. To me, Muslims love and honor Prophet Jesus (as) more than you do. Do you know that when he come back to life, he will not acknowledge Christians as his followers because they have not followed what he taught them?
As consumers, we are always looking at what is the best and latest in the market. People are lining up in the rain today to get the latest Xbox 360. Islam is the best and last of the religion. I know someone said that there are other faiths after Islam, but is it really? I will not go backward in life. Since Al-Quran comes after the Torah and Injil, I will use it to help me live the rest of my life.
To Fathol Zaman, listen to the message but ignore the messenger. The truth can come from anywhere and anyone.
To Professor Din Merican, please accept my apology for mispelling your name before.
Salam to all.
November 22nd, 2005 at 7:33 am
Women are the protected ones and women don’t go to war. So women are not expected to die shahid and as such no mention of the rewards. I get mixed messages about the 72 virgins. I was told that they will be welcomed by 72 pari pari, beautiful, pure and clean and untouched by humans or angles. Allah knows best.
November 22nd, 2005 at 8:04 am
Ummi: “Please forgive me for asking this, but does this concept make sense? How can you let someone else take responsibilty for your sins? You kill or rob someone, then you let someone else take the punishment, in this case, Jesus. To me, Muslims love and honor Prophet Jesus (as) more than you do. Do you know that when he come back to life, he will not acknowledge Christians as his followers because they have not followed what he taught them?”
Since when has matters of faith made perfect sense? As you should be well aware, some things transcend human understanding. Anyway, why do u think Christians love Jesus so much? Because He SAVED them!
November 22nd, 2005 at 5:25 pm
To Bintang
How does Jesus save the Christians? In my opinion, Christians have been led astray by Paul who was led astray by the Devil, our common avowed enemy.
Tauhid — the Oneness of our Creator, if you believe that, then you are Saved. It is simple and easy to understand. Why complicate it? Ponder it.
Peace to all
November 22nd, 2005 at 9:19 pm
Dear Ummi,
I don’t want to stray too far off topic from this blog entry or it will be considered hijacked! Should Bakri create another entry for the discussion of Christianity, perhaps we can continue our discussion there. Or perhaps at one of the other faith discussion forums which are dedicated to the discussion of Christianity.
April 17th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
I find the exchanges on religion enlightening and reading the various comments by obviously very intelligent people and seeing how even with their God given intelligence they are unable to come to an agreement confirms my believe that we are all NOT QUALIFIED to solve our differences in our mundane human ways. We need to see beyond the realm of our human world in order to be able to experience the one and only TRUTH….. Let me share this interesting article written by Derek Lin, author of the book, Tao Living:
Tao Living
The True Self
by Derek Lin
“Master,” the disciple asked, “what exactly is the true self?”
The sage replied, “Ultimately, your true self is the Tao and the Tao is you.”
“I find that hard to believe, Master. The Tao is great; I am insignificant. The Tao is powerful; I have but a little strength. The Tao is unlimited; I labor under many limitations. The Tao is everywhere; I can only be in one place at a time. As far as I can tell, the Tao and I are completely different. How can you say that I am ultimately the Tao and the Tao is me?”
Rather than to respond directly, the sage handed the disciple a bowl: “Go to the nearby river with this and use it to bring back some water, then we’ll continue the discussion.”
The disciple carried out the order, but when he came back, the sage looked at the bowl and frowned. “Didn’t I tell you to fetch the water from the river? This can’t be it.”
“But it is, Master,” the disciple was confused by the disapproval. “I collected the water by dipping the bowl into the river. I assure you that this water absolutely is from the river.”
“I know the river quite well,” the sage said. “All kinds of fish swim in it, but I don’t see any fish in this water. Numerous animals come to the river to drink from it, and yet I see no animals in this bowl. Many children from the village frolic in the shallows of the river. Well, I see no children here either. Therefore, this cannot be the water from the river.”
“Master, it is only a small amount of water, of course it cannot contain all those things!”
“Oh, I see,” said the sage. “Well, in that case, I want you to go pour the water back into the river.”
The disciple did so with a puzzled expression on his face. He couldn’t help but wonder what had possessed the sage to act so strangely. He completed his task and returned.
“Is the water back in the river?” the sage asked. The disciple nodded.
“Good,” said the sage. “That small amount of water you brought back is now the same water that touches the fish, the animals and the children. In fact, everything that the river is now applies to the water we were both looking at just a while ago.
“Think of the river as the Tao and the water in the bowl as your true self. From a limited point of view, that water seems very different from the river. It is understandable how one can be led to believe that the two are not the same and can never be the same. The river is far greater than the bowl of water, just as the Tao is far greater than an individual human being.
“Having carried water from the river, you can now see it from an expanded perspective. The river is the source of the water, just as the Tao is the source of our true inner selves. You saw this for yourself as you dipped the bowl into the river, so you insisted that the water was the same even when I tried to convince you it wasn’t.
“When you poured the water back, you saw that the separation of the water from the river was only temporary. It’s just like that for the true self. Our physical existence is only a temporary condition. The eternal truth is that our innermost nature comes from, and ultimately returns to, the Tao. When all is said and done, we and the Tao are one.”
Just as the bowl contains the water in this story, we have physical bodies that contain our true selves. Having a bowl is useful in that it allows one to carry water from one place to another. Similarly, having a body is useful in that it allows us to experience the physical realm as a part of it.
Sometimes we identify with the body so much, we become attached to it and think of it as the self. That’s like mistaking the bowl for the water. The water remains the same no matter what container it occupies. In the same way, your true self remains the essential “you” no matter how your body changes.
Just as the disciple learned a valuable lesson carrying water from the river and back to it again, we also learn from our experiences and various journeys through the material world. Just as the bowl of water is all by itself as it is being carried around, we can also feel alone and isolated as we move through life, working on our individual lesson plans. This feeling, reinforced by physical perceptions, can make us forget that we are all part of a greater self.
The bowl cannot hold water forever. It may be accidentally dropped and smashed to pieces one day, or it may develop cracks and break apart after years of use. Similarly, the physical body cannot last indefinitely. Accidents, injuries, illness or age will eventually render it unusable.
The water must return to the river. Even if the water isn’t poured back, but spilled somewhere, it will still flow or seep its way into the river. Similarly, when the body is no longer a suitable vessel, the true self it contains must return to the source. Religious people may call this source God; atheists may call it the laws of nature; we call it the Tao. Whatever its label, it is our point of origin as well as our ultimate destination.
Just as the water becomes one with the river, the true self merges with the Tao. That’s when we realize that the feelings of isolation and separation are illusory. You and I are never truly isolated or separated from the divine source of universal creation. We are never truly alone. Oneness, the Tao that unifies all, is the ultimate reality… of the true self.